Telegraph - Women prisoners who call transgender inmates ‘he’ or ‘him’ face extra jail time

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www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/08/women-prisoners-call-transgender-inmates-face-extra-jail-time/

This is an utterly disgraceful abomination of human rights. First they put male rapists and murderers in women's prisons then the women are punished if they won't go along with the despicable pretence.

Extract

Women prisoners who call transgender inmates by the wrong pronoun could face extra time in jail under equality rules, says a justice minister.

Female inmates who deliberately call a transgender woman “he” or “him” could be punished under rules barring “threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour”.

The penalties will be decided by an independent adjudicator, a visiting judge, who has the power to impose additional days if they feel the abuse merits such a punishment.

The disclosure comes amid a growing debate over the policy of holding male-to-female transgender prisoners in women’s jails.

This summer, the High Court rejected a legal challenge to prevent transgender inmates with convictions for sexual or violent offences against women being imprisoned alongside other women.

In 2019, there were 34 transgender women who were still legally male detained at the 12 women’s prisons in England and Wales.

We can't post archive links now but the full article is out there if anyone wants to look.

Who gets to decide that they did it "deliberately"? Whose word will be believed that they did it at all?

what about disabled women, or women who have been damaged by abuse and have a hard time rememebring things.

I thought that number was higher than 34 (& I don’t mean including ‘legally women’ ie those with a GRC.

@BlackeyedSusan

what about disabled women, or women who have been damaged by abuse and have a hard time rememebring things.

Exactly!

extract

New research has found that 78% of women prisoners in Scotland have a history of significant head injury—most of which occurred in the context of domestic abuse that often lasted over periods of several years.

The University of Glasgow-led study—funded by the Scottish Government and published today inThe Lancet Psychiatry—also found 66% of women prisoners had suffered repeat head injuries for many years. The majority of the study participants were from the most deprived population quintile.

Domestic violence was the most common cause of repeat head injury in the women surveyed, reported by 89% of the participants who also reported repeat head injuries. Only five women had experienced a single incident moderate-severe head injury, without multiple, mild head injuries in addition. Of those with a history of significant head injury, a first head injury before the age of 15 was reported by 69% of women.

For the study, researchers interviewed around a quarter of women in Scottish prisons, 109 women in total, between 2018 and 2019. The women were assessed for a history of head injury, including its causes, a history of abuse, as well as for disability and mental and physical health conditions. The study included participants from four Scottish prisons: HMP Cornton Vale, Greenock, Lothian and Polmont.

Of the 78% of women prisoners who had a history of significant head injury, 40% of those who participated in the study also had an associated disability. Previous research has reported that many women in prison have a history of head injury, but none looked at disability.

Researchers also found that violent criminal behavior was three times more likely in those with a history of significant head injury, and that women with a significant head injury had spent three times longer in prison.

Almost all participants in the study, 95%, reported a history of abuse, with more than half reporting sexual abuse in childhood and 46% reporting sexual abuse in adulthood. Physical abuse in childhood was reported by 39%, while 81% of participants reported physical abuse in adulthood.

A history of alcohol or drug misuse was common, with substantially higher rates in the group who reported significant head injuries. Almost all, 92%, complained of mental health difficulties, with anxiety and depression the most commonly reported. Although the average years of education for participants was 12, schooling was often disrupted by exclusion or truanting and many required special schooling or support.

Professor Tom McMillan, professor of clinical neuropsychology at the University of Glasgow and lead author of the study, said: “It is already recognized that women in prison are vulnerable because of histories of abuse and substance misuse. However, this research shows that a history of significant head injury is also a vulnerability and needs to be included when considering mental health needs and in developing criminal justice policy given the relationships with associated disabilities, abuse and violent crime'”.

“Our findings suggest that interventions to reduce mental health morbidity, and assessment and management of risk of violent offending should include history of significant head injury. There is a need to recognize these vulnerabilities at an early stage, including at the first contact with the criminal justice system, to assess these women and provide long term support.”

Common persisting effects of significant head injury include impairments in information processing and emotional changes associated with impulsivity, irritability and egocentricity. These effects can impair judgment and self-control, and as a result increase risk of offending. Significant head injury can also impair the maturation of the developing brain if occurring before adulthood.

The characteristics of significant head injury in women in prison differ from women with significant head injury in the general population. Domestic violence was the most common cause of these injuries in women in prison, whereas falls are most common in the general population. In addition head injury occurred repeatedly in around two-thirds of women in prison with significant head injury, whereas single incident head injury from an accident is more common in the general population.

medicineworldcouncil.com/health-news/research-finds-significant-head-injury-in-women-prisoners-linked-with-past-abuse/

Hmm ok this won't be popular.

I'd need to see the full policy wording or whatever.

Optimistically. If it is about repeated deliberate with intent to bully etc. Then I'm ok with that. Bullying is bullying and bullies find and target something that is very upsetting for the target. Past, race, physique, intelligence. Anything. That works.

If it's not very clearly defined where the threshold is. If it's at all possible to be applied apart from in targeted prolonged ways. Then no no no.

Thinking more.

I would also be keen to see the bullying etc policy. There is bound to be one. If that doc covers bullying using them being trans to do it. Then I would guess that it's already covered. I mean they aren't going to list every possible thing that bullies use.

In which case this is very concerning. Unless they have specific similar policies to this new one for race disability etc.

Need more info.

Thinking this is more than likely inconsistent with other things. That would be a massive concern.

Searching for full article without paywall.

Is this in it-

' Asked about the policy on the words allowed for transgender inmates, Lord Wolfson, the justice minister, said: “Incidents where a prisoner uses incorrect pronouns for another prisoner will be considered on a case-by-case basis, in line with the prisoner discipline procedures policy and the prison rules'

If so it's not a new policy then? It's saying that bullying in this way is included in the current policies?

If that's correct then. I do think this is being reported in a slightly unhelpful way.

There are enough issues with this topic and prisons to be going on with.

Media reporting like this. Is a gift to those who say press are against us this is skewed etc. Can't believe anything they say. Which is detrimental.

IF my understanding is correct.

@timeisnotaline

I thought that number was higher than 34 (& I don’t mean including ‘legally women’ ie those with a GRC.

It may be higher now, but there are a few figures floating about.

One is the number presently within women's prisons, and the other is the number of male prisoners who identify as transgender and who would be moved automatically to the women's estate if we had self-ID. That latter figure is currently 129, last I checked.

For those who can't get behind the Telegraph paywall, here is a similar article from Inside Time.

Women prisoners who call transgender prisoners by the wrong pronoun could be punished with time added on to their sentence, the Government has warned.

Deliberately referring to a trans woman as “he” or “him” may be treated as breaching a prison rule against “using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour” and could be brought before an Independent Adjudicator – a visiting judge – who has the power to award added days.

The threat will fuel a debate over the policy of holding male-to-female transgender prisoners in women’s jails. In 2019 there were 34 transgender women who were still legally male detained at the 12 women’s prisons in England and Wales.

The punishment warning was sounded by Justice Minister Lord Wolfson of Tredegar QC, who said: “Incidents where a prisoner uses incorrect pronouns for another prisoner will be considered on a case-by-case basis, in line with the Prisoner Discipline Procedures policy and the Prison Rules.

“Prisoners may sometimes make an honest mistake in relation to pronouns and disciplinary action would not usually be appropriate in those circumstances. However, if an officer deems it appropriate to place a prisoner on report, the rule against ‘using threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour’ – Prison Rule 51(20) – may apply.

“The adjudicator will weigh each incident on its own merits. The policy stipulates that an offence motivated by another person’s protected characteristic(s) under the Equality Act 2010 is an aggravating factor and may merit referral to an Independent Adjudicator.”

Official guidelines state that disciplinary cases are normally heard by a prison governor, and are only referred to an Independent Adjudicator where there is the possibility of days being added on to the sentence – which is the most severe punishment available.

Under Prison Service policy, any prisoner who has legally changed their gender, and been granted a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) to prove it, will automatically be sent to a jail appropriate to their new gender. A prisoner who identifies as the opposite sex but does not have a GRC will initially go a prison for their old, legally-recognised gender, but may later move between the male and female estates following a case-by-case assessment. This summer the High Court upheld the policy, dismissing a claim from a female prisoner that it placed her at risk to be detained with fellow prisoners who were still biologically male.

Lord Wolfson added: “The Ministry of Justice and Her Majesty’s Prison and Probation Service are committed to advancing equality, eliminating discrimination, harassment and victimisation (including based on someone’s religion or belief, or gender reassignment status, as defined in sections 7 and 10 of the Equality Act 2010) … As part of this, we ensure that all prisoners are treated fairly and in a way that respects their rights, and encourage them to act in a way that is respectful and considerate of others.”

Source: insidetime.org/women-face-punishment-for-using-wrong-pronouns/

I am starting to get into this issue only now. I am reading (books and mumsnet) am watching interviews of key politicians and authors (helen Joyce being one), and seeing witch hunts for intelligent female lesbian academic. I am starting to get OFF THE FENCE. I am starting to become (as David Lammy puts it) a dinosaur. How dare he call us that as a male. How dare he. I am a big advocate of trans rights. It must be done however with proper medical treatment. Women should have their safe spaces protected. I am so depressed we have got here :-(

'in line with the Prisoner Discipline Procedures policy and the Prison Rules.'

No new policy.
No change to rules.

I suspect what happened is that an org or journalist asked the question. Looking for a juicy headline.

Asked could misgendering be bullying. Or something.

The answer was yes. If deliberate bullying etc.

Paper goes with misgendering more time.

That is a headline designed to give a different impression to the actual position. Designed to cause anger from mainly. PC gorn mad types I'd think.

Telegraph is right wing. Appeals to traditional values types. They are focusing on this issue for their own reasons.

And the way they have presented this is very unhelpful.

If I was on the other side of this topic. I'd say this is misleading reporting from a well known media outlet. And I'd be right.

And it's worked. Naturally posted and commented on this board.

Our arguments and complaints are.
Common sense to the vast majority of the population.

Logical and rational. Factual. Based in reality. Rather than slogans, nodebate, blocking you.
And I mean. The statements re trans rights are becoming more bizarre by the day. Did you know that by definition males who identify as women are incapable of behaving in any kind of dodgy way when it comes to women and girls? Only 'cis' men ever do things like that... ?!

That's my view anyway. Let's focus on the obvious massive issues. And don't trust the right any more than the left when it comes to women.

Odd to see that the Telegraph links to the report that 1 in 50 prisoners identify as transsexual (their term in the linked story) yet they report 34 in women's prisons in 2019.

Definitions seem to make it impenetrably difficult to understand important issues and numbers.

And stats are nonsense as well.

A request for info on how many males in women's prisons in ? California.

Has been challenged IN COURT by a longstanding well known USA group that was set up to support etc civil rights. Racism women's issues etc etc.

They went to court. This group. To stop the numbers of males in women's prisons being released.

It's all bizarre extreme and bafflingly bonkers and tbh sinister.

The ONLY thing we have in England Wales that gives any clue about what's happening. Is the fact our rape law involves penis. Females can be done for heavy involvement with the rapist/s. But it's very rare indeed.

That's the only thing there is to go on.

In Ireland. With Barbie k. An individual who is just incredibly dangerous to women.
Almost all the info at the time has vanished from the net. They are in prison, almost certainly a women's prison. The govt site to search ALL court cases and judgements does not contain info. Can only have been redacted. Irish govt dept sent letters to sites hosting info to remove or they would prosecute.

The psychiatrist reports for court etc were TERRIFYING. And the GOVERNMENT has hidden it, suppressed it.

I mean I'm not a conspiracy theorist etc. And I don't hold all this in my head all the time. But when I remember. It's off the scale just .. So much breaking fundamental rules of democracy, open justice system. Loads.

How the fuck has this happened?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes there was a reasonably recent lancet article on head injuries in women in prison where they completely failed to call out or consider impact on the results that 5% participants were trans women. Whcih seems clearly relevant considering difference in head impact on women vs men and women showing additional severity of concussions, more severe migraines etc.

Oh! Loads of it is back!

Interesting.

Google if you've not heard of b Kardashian.

In women's prison for sure.

Before there were hardly any results.. Apart from a couple saying we have been ordered to take this down and screenshot of govt letter.

Brain injuries have been linked to female victims of dv for ages.. And that the impact of the injuries can make women seem not quite with it/ unreliable/ memory not good/ erratic behaviour. Which works against them in court.

It's a shitshow, in other words.

But if GC views are protected in law, how can women prisoners be compelled to use wrong sex pronouns?

I think the Maya Forstater judgement specifically called out that the judgement didn't allow misgendering as a form of harassment.

I read an article a while ago where a lawyer tried to predict how future theoretical misgendering cases might be judged in different circumstances. IIRC, the answer was 'it depends'.

• Misgendering accidentally once would almost certainly be OK.
• Repeatedly and deliberately misgendering in order to harras or bully would almost not be protected.

It gets harder when the person either has a condition (eg ASD) which makes them unable to give a different gender that they believe, or else when someone's religion requires truth (eg Quakers) and they could argue that this was forcing them to say what they perceived as an untruth which went against their religion. The writer said it could go either way in those cases, but would probably be allowed.

I think this is an impossible line to tread. If a woman in prison is faced with a man in her space, and feels threatened, or there is friction, then of course she’s going to reach for the natural reaction of calling him what he is. When you’re feeling angry and threatened, the last thing you’re going to be willing to do is engage in some polite lie.

And if men in women’s prisons feel so terribly bullied, perhaps they should consider whether they’d be safer back in a prison with their fellow men, protected in the same way other vulnerable men are protected.

Really, whatever the reason women might engage in correctly sexing a man in their space, they should not be punished for it, because he shouldn’t be there.

And of course, from many articles I’ve read about their feelings, many men who claim they are women seem so paranoid about their sex being pointed out that they are reactive in a way they wouldn’t be if they were able to accept their sex in a fully factual way. There are so many reports of women being reported for “misgendering” and of authorities seeing transphobia where there is none, that it could be said that such accusations are too easily used as a form of bullying in themselves. The authorities are falling over themselves so much to protect men in a space where they shouldn’t be, that they have lost sight of the fact that this is a problem their own irrational and sexist policies have created.

Men shouldn't be in women's prisons, so I'm never going to agree that women should ever be punished for accurately referring to them by male sex pronouns. I think it's a breach of their human rights.

I don't believe "misgendering" is or should be a thing people should expect to be protected from.

There are so many reports of women being reported for “misgendering” and of authorities seeing transphobia where there is none, that it could be said that such accusations are too easily used as a form of bullying in themselves. The authorities are falling over themselves so much to protect men in a space where they shouldn’t be, that they have lost sight of the fact that this is a problem their own irrational and sexist policies have created.

This.

What about when people have a ludicrous set of neopronouns? Are they entitled to have them used by everyone?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Men shouldn't be in women's prisons, so I'm never going to agree that women should ever be punished for accurately referring to them by male sex pronouns. I think it's a breach of their human rights.

I don't believe "misgendering" is or should be a thing people should expect to be protected from.

Yes this.

Nobody should be punished for recognising what sex someone is.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There are so many reports of women being reported for “misgendering” and of authorities seeing transphobia where there is none, that it could be said that such accusations are too easily used as a form of bullying in themselves. The authorities are falling over themselves so much to protect men in a space where they shouldn’t be, that they have lost sight of the fact that this is a problem their own irrational and sexist policies have created.

This.

Also this.

It's an entirely created problem.

Can we suggest that if they weren't acting like men they would be less likely to be musgendered

@WomaninBoots

Who gets to decide that they did it "deliberately"? Whose word will be believed that they did it at all?

The same people who get to the bottom of all prison bullying

Look at the wording of what you it's 'can' nit 'will' and so will depend on context of the remarks.

It is right that bullying, including transphobic bullying, is sanctioned in prisons.

And like all other bullying or discrimination issues, it is what the recipient of the behaviour thinks that is the key. Policies have been set up that way round since the 1999s or earlier. A white group doesnt get to tell a BAME person they should put up with language that they find unacceptable, even then the white group thinks that language is fine. And if that language is being deliberately used to taunt and exclude, then it's a serious bullying issue.