Single sex spaces are "The hill I am prepared to die on".

[Maskless]

JHB tells BO'N that women's safety in single sex spaces is the topic she is prepared to lose her job about, and the hill she is prepared to die on.

I'm so glad to hear a high profile, loud and forceful woman making such a trenchant, no-nonsense, emphatic announcement about this issue.

Imagine how different things would be if EVERY female presenter, every female MP, every female in the public eye, was as steadfast.

www.spiked-online.com/podcast-episode/a-world-gone-mad/

Pearl I'd go 99%.

But yes.

My conclusion is that the idea that it's hard to tell what sex someone is. And generally clothes etc are relied on.

Is true (truer) for men.

As ever the male norm is seen as THE NORM.

So much patriarchal shite dribbling through this whole movement.

I’m not going to stand up and claim I can always tell whether someone is a man or a woman. I definitely can’t, and sure 50% of that is due to trying not to stare at someone, but I would never be one of these people shouting they can always tell. Guarantee someone could devise a test that proves me wrong. It’s kind of a moot point though. If no one can tell adn you’re an old school transwoman who genuinely just wants to pee surely no one will notice? So let’s make the rules to protect women from men wandering into our spaces because they can and if a few extra slide under the radar then they probably always have.

A quick comment on the idea that butch lesbians are suddenly being challenged every five minutes in women’s toilets. The lesbian in the article shared isn’t a random lesbian. It’s “Ms Stonborough, the Associate Director of Policy and Research at Stonewall”. Not sure if it’s the same article I read before, but I’ve read one where she made the ludicrous claim that she was challenged about a third of the time she uses public toilets. As the mother of a butch lesbian, who hasn’t once been challenged in the UK, and as someone who has spoken to a number of other butch lesbians who’ve perhaps been rarely queried but never nastily, I think we can safely dismiss any article quoting that woman as hyperbolic propaganda, with no basis in truth. Please point it out any time you see her quoted.

Good for JHB though! A hill worth dying on indeed, and I’m glad to see women (even those who are normally confident, as JHB is) standing up for this in increasingly secure terms. Though it’s still not easy to speak out, the accusations and name-calling are getting less and less effective.

YY.

I have never ever seen a woman with a more masculine look have more than a second glance ever.

This insisting that butch lesbians are getting all this shit from women left right and centre...

(Interestingly it's always lesbians even though some straight/ bi women rock a more masculine look.)

I have met lesbian women who are butcher than butch. At feminist events for the more radically minded. At uni as well I somehow ended up with a big group of friends who were gay women. (I know that sounds some of my best friends etc sorry).

And you know. Really. I mean seriously.

Taken for men? With the
Female voices
body shape
height
behaviour
Demeanor
The automatic tiny things that women don't even realise they do generally of acknowledging other women
The facial expressions
Attitude
Way of standing moving etc
.....
And you know.
Tits.
Butch lesbians have boobs. Big small medium etc. Same as heterosexual women!!!!

It is insulting to lesbian women, insulting to women in general.

Who actually does think that lesbian women behave like men?
Men that's who. This constant oh well if it's sexual threat then WHAT ABOUT LESBIANS?
Their apparent inability too see past hair and clothes.

FUCK OFF DRAWING EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN WOMEN WHO ARE HOMOSEXUAL AND MEN.

phew. Feel better for that!

@NiceGerbil

Sorry I can't quite understand your point. I've read a few times and still trying to get to grips.

Is this bit a typo?

'Sure, a transwoman who convincingly passes as a man might unsettle women.'

In general the 'no more right' point I'm not sure on.

Single sex spaces are to protect us from blokes.
Blokes don't need that protection from us.

Women are objecting massively to males in our single sex things.

I haven't heard a hint that bogstandard blokes are even slightly interested.

And in fact when it boils down to it, bogstandard blokes had a pretty long list of people they didn't want in their bogs already!

For me. Single sex stuff for vagina bodies is the vital thing.

Aside from that people can do what they like.

Yeah, that was probably a typo. I meant that a woman who takes testosterone and appears to be a man might make other women uneasy in women's spaces, but no more so than an actual man would. I don't see a way around that, honestly.

Well in the end they are extremely unlikely to want to use spaces for women. I mean. If they look like men to women, then they look like men to men. And men don't really look. Esp in bog etc.

Plus as per earlier comment.

I imagine it would be the last thing they would do from a psychological pov.
Also grown up female would not want to cause discomfort to girls/women. I've read a fair amount of pieces by transmen about. Feminism. The way being seen as male differs from female. Eye opening.

So essentially I think that a trans man who women would totally read as a man. Using single sex female facilities. Is incredibly extremely low.

To me it's obvious for multiple just so many reasons. Reasons that to me are just immediately obvious.

That a trans man, even passing (hate that term), would NO WAY AT ALL be perceived at all the same as a male man man.

In the end the passing trans man is in the gents or has located unisex facilities. Obviously.

The male man meanwhile is in the ladies. And the strong message is.
Pretend not to notice. Don't react. That could be an upsetting thing for them. You must assume they are a woman. And they are where they feel safe. Be kind. Teach your girls that. Men in the bogs changing etc. Do Not Do Anything. Keep quiet, ignore. Don't move away. They might take it as rejection. They are a woman. React accordingly.

IF they do something illegal. A sexual assault, physical aggression etc. Oh dear. That you should report.

If they are just creepy weirdos. Staying just this side of the law. Well there's nothing to worry about! After all women can be strange too! Just be polite and don't alter your behaviour. Otherwise you are at risk of upsetting a vulnerable person. Be kind!!!

Time to put pictures of penises and vaginas on toilet doors. Who owns one -enters.

Enough with the labels. Clearly we can 'pick' labels but not body parts.

I don't care about women using the men's. Women are not a threat to men and of men are uncomfortable it's for them to object.

Men on the other hand, regardless of identity, are a demonstrable threat to women. And women uncomfortable with sharing those spaces have a right to say no - and one no cancels out any number of yeses.

Page would be clocked in a second. Bono maybe less so but that's mainly due to the weight.

Men are also notoriously bad for clocking - but then their safety doesn't depend on it.

@Conniethesensible

Just a thought. Would people like Elliot Page then have to go to the women’s bathroom? Or Chaz Bono?

And don’t you dare say they can use the disabled room. That’s insulting for actual disabled people who need those provisions.

Let’s be real this would be rather silly wouldn’t it?

I usually go against the grain here, my 'be nice' wore out years ago.

I don't care. Anyone who has masculinised themselves far enough to be mistaken for a male, even when moving (highly unlikely) doesn't get to impose themselves on women at their most vulnerbale. If men don't want them in male spaces iether then tough. Lobby for third spaces.

Not disbled spces, they aren't disabled. if nayone tried to make any disabled provision a third space I would be there shouting "No!", just as I am now about female spaces.

But, as far as I am concerned, these days, TRAs have pushed too hard, too far and my response has changed from, "Well, maybe" to "Fuck off!"

That's what happens when you shove too hard. People become entrenched. And I am lacking in self awareness, I know I have become less accommodating, less pleasant. And I really don't care any more!

I'm guessing it is the guy who anally raped the 11 or 12 year old daughter, took photos of it on his phone, and then SET FIRE to both daughters while they were still alive and tied to their beds so they couldn't escape.

That guy wants to be in a women's prison ? Is there nowhere that women won't be able to escape from these monsters?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm guessing it is the guy who anally raped the 11 or 12 year old daughter, took photos of it on his phone, and then SET FIRE to both daughters while they were still alive and tied to their beds so they couldn't escape.

That guy wants to be in a women's prison ? Is there nowhere that women won't be able to escape from these monsters?

Doesn't that just show - there is nothing a male person can do, no matter how terrible, that still doesn't make them more important than anyone biologically female.

fairplayforwomen.com/campaigns/prisons/

Any woman who advocates putting male prisoners in female prisons should be ashamed of themselves. This is classist nonsense being spouted by over privileged women who will never have to endure what these women go through.

Putting men in women’s prison is only proposed by males - and by women who are beyond unlikely to end up there.

Yes they are quite happen to offer up poor, vulnerable women on the altar of their liberal, progressive ideals. God forbid that they should have to share a homeless shelter dormitory with men or a prison cell with a male offender but quite happy to let others suffer.

@BatmansBat

Putting men in women’s prison is only proposed by males - and by women who are beyond unlikely to end up there.

Lisa Nandy is a good example of this

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

If you’re all fine and dandy with non trans men pretending to be trans men and shouting about single sex spaces and their rights then your worms for brain logic is brilliant. Go you

did anyone understand this

is it non non crap?

Anything that ends 'Go you' is proper 100% genuine certified and authenticated crap.

@334bu

Yes they are quite happen to offer up poor, vulnerable women on the altar of their liberal, progressive ideals. God forbid that they should have to share a homeless shelter dormitory with men or a prison cell with a male offender but quite happy to let others suffer.

One of my nice white middle-class, high-earning, be-nice friends expressed the opinion the other day that a few women being raped and attacked is the sad but inevitable price women will have to pay to allow for full trans equality.

She's not a friend any more.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm guessing it is the guy who anally raped the 11 or 12 year old daughter, took photos of it on his phone, and then SET FIRE to both daughters while they were still alive and tied to their beds so they couldn't escape.

That guy wants to be in a women's prison ? Is there nowhere that women won't be able to escape from these monsters?

It's actually the other one, but it's a distinction without a difference.

Sick of the anti lesbian attitudes in some posts. There is no equivalence in how women and lesbians treat men and how men treat women, so bloody well stop pretending there is. Nobody I know has ever been challenged as a lesbian , and the only wiomen saying this are the captured.

a few women being raped and attacked is the sad but inevitable price women will have to pay to allow for full trans equality.

The absolute tragedy that a biological female is so committed to male supremacism and her own inferiority that she could say this in all seriousness.........!

Dear God. No wonder teenaged girls are so desperate not to have to be female in our society.

And for the record NO

Fuck No

Female bodies and lives are not resources for males to use up in pursuit of their own happiness and freedoms. Who the hell is raising these appalling males with these bloody awful attitudes towards women?

@merrymouse

No. Eliot Page has chosen to identify out of their natal sex, therefore the gender neutral facility of a disabled toilet is perfectly adequate for Page or Chaz Bono

I disagree. Disabled toilet facilities are few enough without them being used by people who don’t need them.

We need to be campaigning for more and better facilities.

For one thing, women’s different physiology means they are more reliant on adequate public toilets if they have a disability.

I think financially and logistics wise you simply aren't going to be able to fit 5 or 6 bathrooms to accommodate all genders for every business. Especially, small businesses.

Realistically you'd be looking at:
Male Toilets
Female Toilets
Disabled Toilets
Transgender Male Toilets
Transgender Female Toilets
Gender- Neutral Toilets

I don't think there's the money or indeed the public appetite to fund that many facilities/ changing rooms to accommodate such a small minority from the public purse. Plus assuming there was, that would still take to build. Disabled Toilets are already gender- neutral, and they are single occupancy, allowing for the safety and privacy concerns of transgender people. Additionally, given their numbers are supposedly so small, the impact of them using the disabled toilets would be minimal.

I know for a fact that I don't want to go through the hassle of trying to figure out if Eliot is a male or a female before entering a female only facility, especially as Eliot has gone to a lot of effort to not look female, so I respect Eliot's choice not to use the female toilet.

Yeah, but then there's be abunfight of who uses any of them that have the words male or female in them, so you need at least another 2 subcategories of Male, Female Transgender Male and
Transgender Female Toilets.

Male Male
Female Male

Female Female
and so on!

It could go on forever!

@Gncq

Gender ideology myth number 17 "For there to be women only spaces we'll need genital inspections for everyone"....

Honestly, when I hear stupid shit like this I wonder how they've managed to capture so called right thinking people so easily.