what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

@StrongLegs

The thing that puzzles me is how pissed off I feel at the idea of men suddenly taking over womanhood. I mean it's like we're been living this totally shitty "female" rut for years and suddenly there's a risk that men are going to start "being women" and saying that they are better at that then us (like so many other things).

Is that what other people worry about?

I definitely didn't expect it. It is a brilliant MRA strategy.

@BrandineDelRoy what does MRA mean?

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I do agree with you entirely. My comment was poorly worded.... it should probably have said that nobody would deny that men who declare themselves trans are human beings... nobody is denying their literal human existence on earth, which seems to me to be the implication of the TRA refrain. Just because they can't change sex doesn't mean they don't exist as people

[quote StrongLegs]@BrandineDelRoy what does MRA mean?[/quote]
Men's Rights Activists. I hope this acronym is allowed.

@AndTime "... not a quick easy impulsive decision despite how it is made out to be."

In Scotland, children as young as 4 can declare they are a different gender. Go figure.

The thing is that I don't think that being a woman is about clothing. I mean I know one bloke who I already treat extremely carefully, as though he was my maiden aunt. And he is definitely a man, but he has womanhood totally down. He's much more feminine than I am. He is not remotely interested in transitioning btw. He's totally happy as he is.

If he wore a dress is would look just as weird as it does when I do, but he is definitely very ladylike, whilst being definitely a bloke, and I think that's fine.

When posters pretend not to understand the question that was asked I think it's fairly clear they're not actually here to discuss in good faith (as a general rule of thumb).

@MonsignorMirth

When posters pretend not to understand the question that was asked I think it's fairly clear they're not actually here to discuss in good faith (as a general rule of thumb).

Ahh. Ok.

@MonsignorMirth are some of us getting it terribly wrong? I'm new in this area and have literally no idea what is considered right and wrong.

334bu
I do not believe that there is a definition set out in the GRA. However, here in Scotland in the context of the Gender Equality on Public Boards Act(Scotland), the following definition is given for those considered to be women for the purpose of the Act( no GRC required, only self id)

3. be living as a woman

This would not require the person to dress, look or behave in any particular way. However, it would be expected that there would be evidence that the person was continuously living as a woman, such as – always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; using female titles; updating the gender marker to female on official documents such as a driving licence or passport; describing themselves and being described by others in written or other communication as a woman.

What 334bu posted is really important, because it show how the legal definitions are shifting. Very little of this is about the individual - it's all about making people around them do things. "Always using female pronouns" is super misleading to start with - pronouns are used by other people to describe someone, not by the person themself. So becomes about insisting on other people behaving in the way one wishes, not about own behaviour.

[quote StrongLegs]@MonsignorMirth are some of us getting it terribly wrong? I'm new in this area and have literally no idea what is considered right and wrong.[/quote]
Many trolls come here for screenshots. I don't even consider myself part of the "we" on this discussion. I'm not even in the UK, so I consider myself a guest.

Living as a woman means different things in different societies and dictated by the generational norms of the day.

What living as a woman meant 100 years ago is different to what we determine it to be today in the UK which again is different to what it means in a remote village in India which again is different to what it means in a tribe in New Zealand.

The time period, societal construct, culture and traditions dictate what living as a woman means.

It’s a construct otherwise we-women would have the exact same experiences, expectations and opportunities as each other which we don’t.

such as – always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; using female titles; updating the gender marker to female on official documents

So “living as a woman” = “coercing other people to pretend you are a woman”?

Well, that’s grim.

@StrongLegs

The odd thing is that I do know some beautifully feminine men, who live happily as men and embrace their femininity as men. Just I am a woman who lives as a tomboy.

I wonder why some men are happy to be feminine men, while some want to somehow become women?

I suspect the answer, for a large number of traditional male to female transitioners, might be that they too could have grown up happily as feminine men, but were bullied about their non-masculine ways as very young boys, at a stage when they were too young to understand what male and female meant, and when their personalities were being formed.

I don’t think I’ve ever read a history written by a member of that group that didn’t mention being bullied by a family member.

They invariably take it as a point of proof, that despite the bullying they remained “true to their gender identity” and thus their gender identity must be real. However, I think the error might have occurred due to the bullying in many cases, the child finding a solution that makes sense in their very limited understanding.

@PinkyU

Living as a woman means different things in different societies and dictated by the generational norms of the day.

What living as a woman meant 100 years ago is different to what we determine it to be today in the UK which again is different to what it means in a remote village in India which again is different to what it means in a tribe in New Zealand.

The time period, societal construct, culture and traditions dictate what living as a woman means.

It’s a construct otherwise we-women would have the exact same experiences, expectations and opportunities as each other which we don’t.

Yes, but throughout that time only the women and girls had the experience of developing breasts, menstruating, becoming (or failing to become) pregnant, giving birth, breastfeeding, going through the menopause, and all the while knowing that they were less physically strong than the males of the species and therefore at risk of violence. This is the only universally female experience - having a female body.

@AnyOldPrion that's really interesting and makes a lot of sense to me.

I was bullied for not being masculine enough as a child and that is why I am a tomboy now. I often wonder what I would be like if I had grown up in a family where femininity was valued.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I think this is a really important point. I feel as though this is what it means to be female and we risk having our name as women hijacked and used to mean something quite different, if we don't put our foot down about it. I may be entirely wrong though, because I've seen very little of the debate around this subject and don't really understand the issues that trans people face, just because I don't know any personally.

@allmywhat

such as – always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; using female titles; updating the gender marker to female on official documents

So “living as a woman” = “coercing other people to pretend you are a woman”?

Well, that’s grim.

This.

It means bullshit stereotypes that have fuck all to do with how women actually live. We only have our female biology and the processes that go with that in common as women, apart from that ‘living as a woman’ is just gendered stereotypes which is culturally specific to time and place, ie ‘gender’ today meaning ‘femininity’ or ‘masculinity’ is a made up social concept that in another time and place we would think is completely bizarre and ridiculous.

And all of which rootedness in biology means that a man can never ‘live as a woman’, however much he might enjoy the sound of that.

[quote StrongLegs]@AnyOldPrion that's really interesting and makes a lot of sense to me.

I was bullied for not being masculine enough as a child and that is why I am a tomboy now. I often wonder what I would be like if I had grown up in a family where femininity was valued.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g I think this is a really important point. I feel as though this is what it means to be female and we risk having our name as women hijacked and used to mean something quite different, if we don't put our foot down about it. I may be entirely wrong though, because I've seen very little of the debate around this subject and don't really understand the issues that trans people face, just because I don't know any personally.[/quote]
I'm interested in your experience. I'm two years younger than my brother, but I controlled our make-believe play until puberty. I was tomboyish by nature and how we lived.

But after puberty, things changed.

I should also say I'm talking about the early 1980s in rural Texas. My brother and I played together with no "gender" divisions.

Why are we going backwards? Did one of us need to go to clinic about our gender?

@ChattyLion

It means bullshit stereotypes that have fuck all to do with how women actually live. We only have our female biology and the processes that go with that in common as women, apart from that ‘living as a woman’ is just gendered stereotypes which is culturally specific to time and place, ie ‘gender’ today meaning ‘femininity’ or ‘masculinity’ is a made up social concept that in another time and place we would think is completely bizarre and ridiculous.

And all of which rootedness in biology means that a man can never ‘live as a woman’, however much he might enjoy the sound of that.

Yes

@allmywhat

such as – always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; using female titles; updating the gender marker to female on official documents

So “living as a woman” = “coercing other people to pretend you are a woman”?

Well, that’s grim.

Yes, all of those examples beg the question in that they surely outline results of gender recognition (updating gender markers). Not how to "live as a woman" in order to get recognition. It confuses means and ends. Names and titles are even more superficial than clothes, requiring even less effort.

I was just thinking - if being female is really just the biological parts, I wonder what other sterotypical stuff I could just give up. However, I think I may have given it all up. Hmm.

@BrandineDelRoy thanks for replying. I only partly noticed because one time we stayed with a lovely friend of my Mum's when I was a child and she had two boys and was excited to have me in the house (a girl). That was a new thing because my family really valued boys. The friend bought me a pretty nightie to wear, and a book of little doll cut outs with the little dresses to cut out and put on the dolls with tabs over the shoulders. The friend was really nice and seemed to value me for who I was.

I really quite enjoyed having my femininity valued like that and really celebrated, in a way. However, the nightie was cold, and I tripped over the hem on the stairs. Also the little paper dolls were kind of naff after ten minutes. So I had kind of mixed feelings about it all after that.

A few years later, when I was about 8, the friend sent me a birthday present, which was a multi-pack of pastel coloured knickers, and I thought that was properly strange. Now I think about it, it really actually was quite strange.

In my family, academic excellence, practical clothes and robustness were valued most. All clothes were navy and able to be tumble dried. Unfortunately my Mum and I suffered a lot of poor health, and we also had eye difficulty which meant we struggled to read, and so I grew up associating female gender with weakness, which was not great. With hindsight, it wasn't the men's fault that we were not in good health. That just was a thing that happened.

@BaronMunchausen

That post is not confused, those are the things you have to prove you already have done in order to get a GRC. You can do them without a GRC for example your passport you need a letter from your doctor and and application form.
The only benefits from obtaining a GRC are being able to marry as your chosen gender, it be a lawful wife in the term of this thread, and pension purposes.

The GRC panel aren't interested in what you wear, you never meet them, they want a medical diagnosis of dysphoria and proof that you use your chosen pronouns at all times and are using a name that lines up with that too.