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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

what does it mean "live as a woman"?

999 replies

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 13:23

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

OP posts:
Dragonpox · 01/10/2021 21:09

For me, living as a woman means a constant fight against stereotypes and bringing up my DC to break them.

ComprehensiveTea · 01/10/2021 21:10

So it's half bureaucracy (name, gender markers on documents) and half (potentially) coercion (depending on how well they pass, I suppose)?
I wonder what would happen if we removed gender markers from everything, for everybody (but keeping sex when it matters, like health and sports).

StrongLegs · 01/10/2021 21:17

@ComprehensiveTea that's a really interesting question.

My son's school has a mixed toilet, which really surprised me, but I can see that for the LGBTQ+ community that might be a really good thing.

It surprised me slightly more when my ds told me that one of the cubicles has the door missing and that he just uses it anyway! Blush

StrongLegs · 01/10/2021 21:21

@ComprehensiveTea I wonder if we could also keep the markers that are currently considered "feminine" but make so that men can take part in those just as much as women?

I mean things like wearing pretty colours and skirts, and make-up and nice shoes, and whathaveyou. Those things could be for men and women equally.

I saw a middle aged man wearing a lovely wrap skirt at a computer show once, and he looked smashing in it. He wasn't feminine in the slightest, so if he'd been wearing trousers he would have just been a standard bloke, but he had on this lovely skirt. I complimented him on it and he said he'd made it himself. We had a nice chat about how hard it is to get fabric, and I really enjoyed that. It didn't feel wrong in any way.

ComprehensiveTea · 01/10/2021 21:32

[quote StrongLegs]@ComprehensiveTea that's a really interesting question.

My son's school has a mixed toilet, which really surprised me, but I can see that for the LGBTQ+ community that might be a really good thing.

It surprised me slightly more when my ds told me that one of the cubicles has the door missing and that he just uses it anyway! Blush[/quote]
Ha! Going to the toilet if you're a male is potentially so much more private. No facing the door. Far less undressing. I used to think toilets didn't matter so much... but I've changed ny mind.

BrandineDelRoy · 01/10/2021 21:35

@StrongLegs

I was just thinking - if being female is really just the biological parts, I wonder what other sterotypical stuff I could just give up. However, I think I may have given it all up. Hmm.

@BrandineDelRoy thanks for replying. I only partly noticed because one time we stayed with a lovely friend of my Mum's when I was a child and she had two boys and was excited to have me in the house (a girl). That was a new thing because my family really valued boys. The friend bought me a pretty nightie to wear, and a book of little doll cut outs with the little dresses to cut out and put on the dolls with tabs over the shoulders. The friend was really nice and seemed to value me for who I was.

I really quite enjoyed having my femininity valued like that and really celebrated, in a way. However, the nightie was cold, and I tripped over the hem on the stairs. Also the little paper dolls were kind of naff after ten minutes. So I had kind of mixed feelings about it all after that.

A few years later, when I was about 8, the friend sent me a birthday present, which was a multi-pack of pastel coloured knickers, and I thought that was properly strange. Now I think about it, it really actually was quite strange.

In my family, academic excellence, practical clothes and robustness were valued most. All clothes were navy and able to be tumble dried. Unfortunately my Mum and I suffered a lot of poor health, and we also had eye difficulty which meant we struggled to read, and so I grew up associating female gender with weakness, which was not great. With hindsight, it wasn't the men's fault that we were not in good health. That just was a thing that happened.

I think this just shows you a human, in a female body. All the sexualized abuse I've ever received was because I'm in a female body.
OchonAgusOchonOh · 01/10/2021 21:37

[quote StrongLegs]@ComprehensiveTea that's a really interesting question.

My son's school has a mixed toilet, which really surprised me, but I can see that for the LGBTQ+ community that might be a really good thing.

It surprised me slightly more when my ds told me that one of the cubicles has the door missing and that he just uses it anyway! Blush[/quote]
I hope when you say a mixed toilet that they are providing it in addition to single sex toilets that are equally accessible.

Otherwise, it's a less good thing for the female community. But they don't seem to matter too much generally.

And I suspect the only members of the LGBT+ community it is "a good thing" for is the T part of the community.

ComprehensiveTea · 01/10/2021 21:44

[quote StrongLegs]@ComprehensiveTea I wonder if we could also keep the markers that are currently considered "feminine" but make so that men can take part in those just as much as women?

I mean things like wearing pretty colours and skirts, and make-up and nice shoes, and whathaveyou. Those things could be for men and women equally.

I saw a middle aged man wearing a lovely wrap skirt at a computer show once, and he looked smashing in it. He wasn't feminine in the slightest, so if he'd been wearing trousers he would have just been a standard bloke, but he had on this lovely skirt. I complimented him on it and he said he'd made it himself. We had a nice chat about how hard it is to get fabric, and I really enjoyed that. It didn't feel wrong in any way.[/quote]
I was actually talking about administrative markers, but...OH YES!!!!!
I agree with that so much.
Not just for men either - I actually prefer the colours schemes of men's clothes, but more often than not, like with most trousers, and shoes, they don't fit my female morphology. Would love to see shops where clothes are exactly the same for men and women, just with different fits to account for morphologies.
Though I do think that the spectrum of what men are "supposed" to wear is far more restricted than what women can wear, so they do need it more.
Yes, I'd love to see that.

OldCrone · 01/10/2021 21:47

The only benefits from obtaining a GRC are being able to marry as your chosen gender, it be a lawful wife in the term of this thread, and pension purposes.

So it's not needed at all any more. Same-sex couples can marry and the pension age is the same for men and women.

The GRC panel aren't interested in what you wear, you never meet them, they want a medical diagnosis of dysphoria and proof that you use your chosen pronouns at all times and are using a name that lines up with that too.

I'll reword that to be more accurate.

The GRC panel aren't interested in what you wear, you never meet them, they want a medical diagnosis of dysphoria and proof that you coerce other people to use your chosen pronouns at all times and are using a name that lines up with that too.

Is there a list of acceptable names for each sex?

gildalily · 01/10/2021 21:48

Being wary of going out after dark; carrying your keys as a weapon; having random blokes show you their genitals uninvited; checking the back seat if your car before you get in; sticking to well lit routes and walking in the middle of the road; talking to a friend all the way home; having a highly developed sense of who and what is around you; wearing trainers so you can run; being groped in crowded places; being shouted at by blokes on scaffolding; looking for the way out of you need to get out in a rush; having to grin when middle aged twats are 'charming' to you at work; "give us a smile love"; at school guarding your bag so boys don't find your tampax; tolerating lechy 'uncles'; never being picked for the football team despite always going to practice; having to do rounders instead of cricket; someone discreetly mentioning you've got a mark on the back of your trousers; always putting yourself between them and and the door when meeting clients; being offered a discount for a blow job; being bought an unsolicited drink and then having to listen to some nob talk about themselves all night.

Oh yeah - and nail varnish Angry

ComprehensiveTea · 01/10/2021 21:53

Yeah, how does the GRC panel knows whether a name is a female name, if the name is outside the cultural context they are familiar with?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 21:58

So, what I'm learning is that "living as a woman" is not defined anywhere. It is just a thing that is understood by men, and applied to male people who feel feminine?

And that women are irrelevant to both of those parties.

OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 22:04

Comprehensive all the trans and NB people I know are white.

I hadn't noticed that before.

OP posts:
BaronMunchausen · 01/10/2021 22:04

[quote AndTime]@BaronMunchausen

That post is not confused, those are the things you have to prove you already have done in order to get a GRC. You can do them without a GRC for example your passport you need a letter from your doctor and and application form.
The only benefits from obtaining a GRC are being able to marry as your chosen gender, it be a lawful wife in the term of this thread, and pension purposes.

The GRC panel aren't interested in what you wear, you never meet them, they want a medical diagnosis of dysphoria and proof that you use your chosen pronouns at all times and are using a name that lines up with that too. [/quote]
My understanding is that these are criteria, in relation specifically to the Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act 2018, for people who do NOT have a GRC. That Act has two other criteria, but the one of interest here that we're discussing is the definition of "living as a woman".

What confuses me is that this definition of "living as a woman" consists of simply describing yourself as a woman. Changing your gender markers is "living as a woman".

Now, the Gender Recognition Act (2004) in turn seems to require living in the acquired gender in order to... legally change their gender markers?!

ComprehensiveTea · 01/10/2021 22:28

@BaronMunchausen

GrinGrinGrin

OperationDessertStorm · 01/10/2021 23:11

I have no idea.

We’re often told (patronisingly) that “if you’ve met one trans person, you’ve met one trans person. They’re not all the same” (with a tinkly laugh).

For some reason if we say “if you’ve met one woman, you’ve met one woman. We’re not all the same.” We’re being obtuse.

JamieNorthlife · 01/10/2021 23:24

@gildalily

Being wary of going out after dark; carrying your keys as a weapon; having random blokes show you their genitals uninvited; checking the back seat if your car before you get in; sticking to well lit routes and walking in the middle of the road; talking to a friend all the way home; having a highly developed sense of who and what is around you; wearing trainers so you can run; being groped in crowded places; being shouted at by blokes on scaffolding; looking for the way out of you need to get out in a rush; having to grin when middle aged twats are 'charming' to you at work; "give us a smile love"; at school guarding your bag so boys don't find your tampax; tolerating lechy 'uncles'; never being picked for the football team despite always going to practice; having to do rounders instead of cricket; someone discreetly mentioning you've got a mark on the back of your trousers; always putting yourself between them and and the door when meeting clients; being offered a discount for a blow job; being bought an unsolicited drink and then having to listen to some nob talk about themselves all night.

Oh yeah - and nail varnish Angry

The joys !!!

Its all so traumatic that ended up being normalised.

tomorrowalready · 02/10/2021 00:34

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Comprehensive all the trans and NB people I know are white.

I hadn't noticed that before.

In Birmingham pre-Covid an Asian transgender person had been organising an event (march, festival, not quite sure) because they felt they were not recognised enough.
wincarwoo · 02/10/2021 01:03

@PinkyU

Living as a woman means different things in different societies and dictated by the generational norms of the day.

What living as a woman meant 100 years ago is different to what we determine it to be today in the UK which again is different to what it means in a remote village in India which again is different to what it means in a tribe in New Zealand.

The time period, societal construct, culture and traditions dictate what living as a woman means.

It’s a construct otherwise we-women would have the exact same experiences, expectations and opportunities as each other which we don’t.

Experiences don't make us women. Bodies do.
wincarwoo · 02/10/2021 01:31

I'm coming to the conclusion that the trans-women are women notion is one of the biggest, most audacious cons of our lifetime.

KimikosNightmare · 02/10/2021 02:24

@Sonarl

It means skirts, high heels, fishnets and makeup, basically.

Stuff that most modern women aren't the slightest bit interested in.

That comment about "modern women is just the flipside of what you (general you) is criticising. As well as being patently untrue.
ChristmasPlanning · 02/10/2021 02:24

Never keen to be paid less, ripped off by tradespeople or patronised

But YES to shopping for shoes and lipstick!

LobsterNapkin · 02/10/2021 03:48

@CharlieParley

This is all taking the statement out of it's context, which is medicalized and only relevant in a situation where the person in question is not, in fact, a woman.

I'm about as critical of gender ideology as you can be, and I think it does tend to lead to sexism because of the larger implications, but it is not really useful to treat this statement in a way that completely decontextualizes it.

I hear you LobsterNapkin, so how about we set some parameters towards defining that phrase ourselves.

So, as you rightly point out, the phrase "living in the acquired gender" originally referred to individuals who had medically transitioned and who were now seeking to legally change sex.

Going back to the discussion and public information disseminated by the UK Government during the time of passing the Gender Recognition Act Bill through parliament, this was very much aimed at putting the public in mind of the feminine male homosexual transsexuals or masculine female homosexual transsexuals who would transition medically as far as both their own health and the available healthcare at the time allowed. For males this almost always involved genital surgery. For females, because genital surgery is even today riskier with high rates of complications, this wasn't the case. But because testosterone is a hell of a drug, they often successfully passed anyway.

So the phrase as originally intended applied only to individuals who had removed secondary and primary characteristics of their birth sex (as much as possible), whose bodies had further changed through cross-sex hormones and possibly a range of cosmetic procedures. They passed as the opposite sex for all intents and purposes and would largely be treated by society as if they were members of the opposite sex.

The phrase "living in their acquired gender" is using gender here as a synonym for sex.

Can we agree that the phrase only makes sense in this specific context?

And if you agree with that, then would you also agree that the phrase "living in their acquired gender" has no place in laws, policies or regulations based on gender identity (or self-id)?

It's not asking you to say that only women can be nurses, or they can't wear hoodies. But I don't really believe that anyone doesn't recognize that William is usually a male name and Sue a female name, or that we have pronouns associated with our sex, or that there are some clothing and fashions that are more associated with one sex than the others. That's not what a stereotype is. And I would maintain that these female associations are not somehow "lesser" than the male ones.

I wonder if you're parsing "stereotype" in its secondary meaning here, and not the primary?

The primary meaning derived from its etymology is a "firm impression". We have firm impressions about what attributes certain groups of people have in common. We get these impressions from observing people and using the pattern recognition skills we develop in early childhood.

These stereotypes can be accurate or inaccurate, they can generalise and oversimplify, depending on what the stereotypes are. Although it is often believed that stereotypes are always negative beliefs about groups of people, this is not true.

As you point out, if we sorted people by their first names, if you then looked at a group of Sues and a group of Williams, almost all of us would expect to see a group of females and a group of males respectively. That's an accurate stereotype. (It remains accurate even if it isn't always true. Because stereotypes are beliefs we have about groups of people, not all members have to share all the attributes that make up the content of the stereotype.)

The secondary meaning, which we are mostly concerned with here is that of stereotypes about men and women, classed into binary hierarchies, of which the ones associated with the female sex are inferior to the ones associated with the male sex. Even if all of us did indeed share the attributes in question (such as being caring, emotional, good at cooking etc), that hierarchy is already a problem, because it decrees that we are inferior if we have those attributes.

That problem is then compounded by the society we live in, which seeks to impose these stereotypes on us and punishes non-compliance. Given that the attributes associated with the female sex are considered to make us inferior creatures when compared to men, it means that we cannot win. Comply and submit to the hierarchy or refuse to comply and be penalised.

We are in agreement that the stereotypes associated with the female sex are not inferior. I hope we are also in agreement that they shouldn't be imposed on us in any way?

If a person who is male is using titles or language usually associated with women, and taking on other cultural customs associated with women, there is a sense in which they are doing something different than what is usual, and in a deliberate way. Saying that none of those things makes someone a woman doesn't make that less true.

Well, it's true that a man who calls himself Sue, wears dresses and loves cake decorating etc is deliberately "doing something different". But why should that be meaningful in laws, policies and regulations? (And let's be frank here, he is not merely doing something different, he is giving up power and deliberately adopting attributes considered inferior.)

So taking these stereotypes you listed above, our phrase "living in their acquired gender" is now referring to a different concept using gender as socially constructed stereotypes (or what I call sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes).

And governments are now using the phrase in this latter meaning, where living in your acquired gender means adopting the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with the opposite sex.

It's no longer connected to post-op transsexuals treated as the sex they wish to be, but to physiologically intact males and females following their preferences for feminine or masculine stereotypes respectively.

What this means is that governments who are seeking to enshrine gender identity in law are seeking to enshrine sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes in law. And that phrase "living in their acquired gender" is hugely damaging to women because of the hierarchy.

Well I would say that if the idea of living as the opposite sex is going to exist in some legal sense, or even socially, it needs to be done under clearly defined circumstances and for a clearly defined set of reasons that are meant to achieve a useful purpose., and that it is going to involve certain limits that will differentiate it from actually being a member of a particular sex. I personally have some real doubts as to the benefit for even the treatment of serious, ongoing sex dysphoria, but it seems to work out ok for some.

I'd also say that, FWIW, the way you are using the word stereotype is, IMO, not the way it's been used generally in this conversation where most posters have intended it in a fairly negative way. I agree that stereotypes can in many instances be accurate when referring to groups, but many people are also quite uncomfortable with that.

We can ask from some abstract philosophical position what it really means to live as a women, but I think it is really just useless for people to speak as if they don't understand quite well what it means for someone to present oneself socially and perhaps legally as a woman, or man in whatever form that takes in their culture, within this medicalized context. It doesn't prove anything and seems rather forced..

EdgeOfACoin · 02/10/2021 06:48

Stefonknee Wolscht lives as a 6-year-old girl.

mercatornet.com/the-mechanic-who-transitioned-to-a-6-year-old-girl/20016/

Stefonknee identifies as a 6-year-old, dresses in short frilly dresses and has adoptive parents. Her best friend is the daughter of her adoptive parents.

I presume that everyone who believes that Stefonknee 'lives as' a female and has transitioned to being female also believes that Stefonknee is transage and should be treated exactly the same as any other six year old girl? For instance, joining the Rainbows?

Would those who believe it is possible to live 'as a woman' confirm that it is also possible to live 'as a little girl', provided that the transitioner's identity is genuine? That it is possible to become a different age, just like it is possible to become a citizen of a different country?

Lemonyfuckit · 02/10/2021 07:35

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Yes, this is what I think. It's about lipstick and heels, isn't it? Long hair that you swish around and submissiveness?

It's so FUCKING OFFENSIVE!

I'm the middle of a conversation about gender at work - I actually think I might explode. They are describing stereotypes that women have been railing against for for quite a long time.

Also, I don't seem to meet any of the criteria they mention. So, am I accidentally a transman? I've got short hair, quite a decent tache (thanks, menopause), I'm wearing jeans and a sweatshirt, trainers and no make up. I have yet to giggle coquettishly or have a pillow fight - uh oh.

Yup. I. AM. SO. FUCKING. OVER. THIS. MISOGYNISTIC.BULLSHIT.