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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

what does it mean "live as a woman"?

999 replies

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 13:23

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

OP posts:
CharlieParley · 01/10/2021 17:39

This is all taking the statement out of it's context, which is medicalized and only relevant in a situation where the person in question is not, in fact, a woman.

I'm about as critical of gender ideology as you can be, and I think it does tend to lead to sexism because of the larger implications, but it is not really useful to treat this statement in a way that completely decontextualizes it.

I hear you LobsterNapkin, so how about we set some parameters towards defining that phrase ourselves.

So, as you rightly point out, the phrase "living in the acquired gender" originally referred to individuals who had medically transitioned and who were now seeking to legally change sex.

Going back to the discussion and public information disseminated by the UK Government during the time of passing the Gender Recognition Act Bill through parliament, this was very much aimed at putting the public in mind of the feminine male homosexual transsexuals or masculine female homosexual transsexuals who would transition medically as far as both their own health and the available healthcare at the time allowed. For males this almost always involved genital surgery. For females, because genital surgery is even today riskier with high rates of complications, this wasn't the case. But because testosterone is a hell of a drug, they often successfully passed anyway.

So the phrase as originally intended applied only to individuals who had removed secondary and primary characteristics of their birth sex (as much as possible), whose bodies had further changed through cross-sex hormones and possibly a range of cosmetic procedures. They passed as the opposite sex for all intents and purposes and would largely be treated by society as if they were members of the opposite sex.

The phrase "living in their acquired gender" is using gender here as a synonym for sex.

Can we agree that the phrase only makes sense in this specific context?

And if you agree with that, then would you also agree that the phrase "living in their acquired gender" has no place in laws, policies or regulations based on gender identity (or self-id)?

It's not asking you to say that only women can be nurses, or they can't wear hoodies. But I don't really believe that anyone doesn't recognize that William is usually a male name and Sue a female name, or that we have pronouns associated with our sex, or that there are some clothing and fashions that are more associated with one sex than the others. That's not what a stereotype is. And I would maintain that these female associations are not somehow "lesser" than the male ones.

I wonder if you're parsing "stereotype" in its secondary meaning here, and not the primary?

The primary meaning derived from its etymology is a "firm impression". We have firm impressions about what attributes certain groups of people have in common. We get these impressions from observing people and using the pattern recognition skills we develop in early childhood.

These stereotypes can be accurate or inaccurate, they can generalise and oversimplify, depending on what the stereotypes are. Although it is often believed that stereotypes are always negative beliefs about groups of people, this is not true.

As you point out, if we sorted people by their first names, if you then looked at a group of Sues and a group of Williams, almost all of us would expect to see a group of females and a group of males respectively. That's an accurate stereotype. (It remains accurate even if it isn't always true. Because stereotypes are beliefs we have about groups of people, not all members have to share all the attributes that make up the content of the stereotype.)

The secondary meaning, which we are mostly concerned with here is that of stereotypes about men and women, classed into binary hierarchies, of which the ones associated with the female sex are inferior to the ones associated with the male sex. Even if all of us did indeed share the attributes in question (such as being caring, emotional, good at cooking etc), that hierarchy is already a problem, because it decrees that we are inferior if we have those attributes.

That problem is then compounded by the society we live in, which seeks to impose these stereotypes on us and punishes non-compliance. Given that the attributes associated with the female sex are considered to make us inferior creatures when compared to men, it means that we cannot win. Comply and submit to the hierarchy or refuse to comply and be penalised.

We are in agreement that the stereotypes associated with the female sex are not inferior. I hope we are also in agreement that they shouldn't be imposed on us in any way?

If a person who is male is using titles or language usually associated with women, and taking on other cultural customs associated with women, there is a sense in which they are doing something different than what is usual, and in a deliberate way. Saying that none of those things makes someone a woman doesn't make that less true.

Well, it's true that a man who calls himself Sue, wears dresses and loves cake decorating etc is deliberately "doing something different". But why should that be meaningful in laws, policies and regulations? (And let's be frank here, he is not merely doing something different, he is giving up power and deliberately adopting attributes considered inferior.)

So taking these stereotypes you listed above, our phrase "living in their acquired gender" is now referring to a different concept using gender as socially constructed stereotypes (or what I call sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes).

And governments are now using the phrase in this latter meaning, where living in your acquired gender means adopting the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with the opposite sex.

It's no longer connected to post-op transsexuals treated as the sex they wish to be, but to physiologically intact males and females following their preferences for feminine or masculine stereotypes respectively.

What this means is that governments who are seeking to enshrine gender identity in law are seeking to enshrine sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes in law. And that phrase "living in their acquired gender" is hugely damaging to women because of the hierarchy.

Nowayhozay · 01/10/2021 17:48

@Blackandwhitehorse

I guess it’s not a very thorough or thought through process as it was considered an extremely niche issue unlikely to affect many people at all.

Just reading comments about the number of middle aged men and wonder if some could be having a mid life crisis. Not meant to be offensive or demeaning, genuinely just wondering.

I think it's more that these middle aged men have spent decades suppressing and fighting their feelings until they reach a stage where its just to much to bear. I guess though that could be considered a crisis
Libraryghost · 01/10/2021 17:50

I am turning this around in my head and imagining for whatever reason I had to live as a man. The first thing that came into my head was because I am obviously not a man I would have to try harder than the average male and would have to be tough and dress really masculine and be a bit of a lad. Of course though not all men are like that, it’s a stereotype but I wonder if thats the thought process some trans women have. Must have long hair , must wear high heels and have a silly giggle etc. I think if I had to live as a man I would become a caricature because I wouldn't know how else to convey myself as male??

anothermansshoes · 01/10/2021 17:52

Well it has pictures of dinosaurs
No dinasaurs were harmed in the making of the bra

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 01/10/2021 17:54

@anothermansshoes

Well it has pictures of dinosaurs No dinasaurs were harmed in the making of the bra
Awesome! I want one.
AndTime · 01/10/2021 17:58

It means presenting as female all the time.

You have to provide evidence of this spanning two years.

Wage slips, utility bills, change of name document, passport or driving license.

In addition to this you have to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, the chances of getting this on the nhs with current waiting times is very little and a private diagnosis costs several hundred pounds.

You also gave to have additional medical documents from your own GP and a affidavit stating your intention to live as your acquired gender.

Yes at really not a quick easy impulsive decision despite how it is made out to be.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 01/10/2021 18:02

@goinggently

Of course trans people exist, I don't think anybody would deny that...
I'd be interested in a very tightly defined scientific/psychological definition of what it means to be transgender. This thread demonstrates it isn't easy to define. By contrast, it's extremely easy to define what it means to be male or female and almost all of us can be so classified.

What is the advantage of recognising anyone as transgender rather than as a gender nonconforming member of their sex? Nobody can change sex. Nobody can identify out of their sex. I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s when lots of people were GNC by modern standards. Nobody argued that as a consequence they should be recognised as the opposite sex, and neither should they. This all comes back to sexism, stereotypes and misogyny. A male person who wants to dress in accordance with female stereotypes is not degrading himself. A female person who has a double mastectomy and takes hormones so as to be able to grow facial hair is not becoming male as a result and in real life nobody thinks this.

joolzfromyork · 01/10/2021 18:04

Would you like to help me understand what "live as a woman" means to you?

OK ... last go cos ya know busy busy busy ...

I wake up every morning

Live my life

Go to bed at night

Next question

(and no, I'm not being flip ... it really is that simple)

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 01/10/2021 18:07

How would I live as a male?

  • Take up too much space on the Tube
  • Grow facial hair and spend time on grooming it
  • Take an interest in football
  • Learn not to be able to find things that are in plain sight
  • Expect a huge pat on the back for taking care of my own children or cooking or doing the laundry
  • Ignore all the signs that I need to wake up during the night to go and find out what's wrong with one of my children
  • Forget all my family's birthdays and other significant dates
  • Work hard on never expressing any emotion except anger or amusement and being dismissive about anybody who does get emotional

Has about as much validity as the nonsense about long hair, makeup, shoe styles, pencil skirts etc.

toomanytrees · 01/10/2021 18:10

@LobsterNapkin

Really interesting and thought provoking posts.

I don't think cultural reflections of sexual dimorphism are inherently sexist. I agree.

StrongLegs · 01/10/2021 18:11

@Libraryghost

I am turning this around in my head and imagining for whatever reason I had to live as a man. The first thing that came into my head was because I am obviously not a man I would have to try harder than the average male and would have to be tough and dress really masculine and be a bit of a lad. Of course though not all men are like that, it’s a stereotype but I wonder if thats the thought process some trans women have. Must have long hair , must wear high heels and have a silly giggle etc. I think if I had to live as a man I would become a caricature because I wouldn't know how else to convey myself as male??
I tried to buy a nice dress a few months ago in order to look female properly for the first time since my son was born 11 years ago.

The dress looked great and very feminine on my body, but my face has got older and more masculine somehow and the dress looked totally out of place with my face at the top.

In the end I realised that what makes me look really feminine now is wearing men's clothes from M&S.

That was a bit of an eye opener for me and made me wonder if men who are trying to cross dress end up wearing women's clothes that they really don't like, just because they feel they have to conform, in a way that actual women don't.

@CharlieParley I did read your long post above but I didn't really understand it. Sorry about that.

Boatonthehorizon · 01/10/2021 18:25

If I lived as a man I wouldnt be any different to how I am now. That's a bit alarming. Ive often thought, over on twitter, when explaining that all the other women on my daughters stem degree open days were ftm trans, and that Im a enginneer that in current politics I am a man.
I feel a bit displaced by the concept.

I wear trousers, boots, mens clothes, Im an engineer, I like football, Im not good at remembering birthdays, I often can't find things in plain sight, I'm noticably less accomodating/ pleasant than most women, I prefer pats on back for housework.

Little girls often feel the pressure to be a woman too overwhelmingly impossible at early secondary and say theyre male.

I'm suddenly feeling it too. Maybe Im not woman enough?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/10/2021 18:28

There is no answer because a man cannot become a woman.

YY, it really cuts through the nonsense.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 18:28

Joolz
"I wake up every morning

Live my life

Go to bed at night"

Erm, everybody does those things. How are those things "living as a woman" and different from living as a man, or a teenager, or a person who uses a wheelchair or any other defined group of people?

OP posts:
StrongLegs · 01/10/2021 18:29

@Boatonthehorizon I'm the same, but I can find things in plain sight and I'm definitely female. I wonder if we need to find a way to define ourselves to claim our turf before it gets taken away from us?

I mean I am definitely female, but I reserve the right to be a bit of a Tomboy and I think that's okay.

Runningupthecurtains · 01/10/2021 18:31

@joolzfromyork

Would you like to help me understand what "live as a woman" means to you?

OK ... last go cos ya know busy busy busy ...

I wake up every morning

Live my life

Go to bed at night

Next question

(and no, I'm not being flip ... it really is that simple)

@Joolzfromyork so how is that different to you living as a man? What makes you think/feel/believe that you should/need/want to live as a woman? Why can't/ won't you live as a man?
Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/10/2021 18:34

I think it's more that these middle aged men have spent decades suppressing and fighting their feelings until they reach a stage where its just to much to bear.

That's fair enough, but women have their own issues to deal with, we're not put on the earth to soothe male mid life crises. I don't suppose it's an accident that it's a time of life stereotypically known in males in general as a period when they often become quite self centred, prioritise hobbies or new friends, abandon family etc.

Leafstamp · 01/10/2021 18:34

Not RFTF (sorry), but I hope someone has mentioned the lyrics from Pulp's Common People.

You can't live as a woman if you're a man.

Like you can't live as the 'common people' if you're 'posh'/rich

Here are the lyrics:

She came from Greece
She had a thirst for knowledge
She studied sculpture at Saint Martins College
That's where I
Caught her eye

She told me that her dad was loaded
I said, "Well, in that case I'll have a rum and Coca-Cola"
She said, "Fine"
And then in thirty seconds' time, she said
"I wanna live like common people

I wanna do whatever common people do
I wanna sleep with common people
I wanna sleep with common people like you"
What else could I do?
I said "Oh, I'll see what I can do"

I took her to a supermarket
I don't know why, but I had to start it somewhere
So it started there
I said, "Pretend you've got no money."
And she just laughed and said, "Oh, you're so funny"
I said "Yeah?
I can't see anyone else smiling in here
Are you sure?

You wanna live like common people
You wanna see whatever common people see
Wanna sleep with common people
You wanna sleep with common people like me?"
But she didn't understand
She just smiled and held my hand

Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some fags and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school
But still you'll never get it right
'Cos when you're laying in bed at night
Watching roaches climb the wall
If you called your dad he could stop it all
Yeah

You'll never live like common people
You'll never do whatever common people do
Never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
And then dance, and drink, and screw
Because there's nothing else to do (C'mon)

Sing along with the common people
Sing along and it might just get you through
Laugh along with the common people
Laugh along even though they're laughing at you
And the stupid things that you do
Because you think that poor is cool

Like a dog lying in a corner
They will bite you and never warn you
Look out
They'll tear your insides out
'Cos everybody hates a tourist
Especially one who thinks it's all such a laugh
Yeah and the chip stains and grease will come out in the bath

You will never understand
How it feels to live your life
With no meaning or control
And with nowhere left to go
You are amazed that they exist
And they burn so bright whilst you can only wonder why

Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some fags and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school

But still you'll never get it right
'Cos when you're laying in bed at night
Watching roaches climb the wall
If you called your Dad he could stop it all, yeah

You'll never live like common people
You'll never do what common people do
You'll never fail like common people
You'll never watch your life slide out of view
And then dance, and drink, and screw
Because there's nothing else to do

I want to live with common people like you
I want to live with common people like you
I want to live with common people like you
I want to live with common people like you
I want to live with common people like you
I want to live with common people like you
I want to live with common people like you

Aa-aa-ah la la la la
Aa-aa-ah la la la la
Aa-aa-ah la la la la
Aa-aa-ah la la-la-la la-la
Oh yeah

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/10/2021 18:35

Indeed, Leafstamp.

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2021 18:37

@joolzfromyork

Would you like to help me understand what "live as a woman" means to you?

OK ... last go cos ya know busy busy busy ...

I wake up every morning

Live my life

Go to bed at night

Next question

(and no, I'm not being flip ... it really is that simple)

and how is that different from 'living as a man'?
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 18:38

I do love that anthem, Leaf.

"But still you'll never get it right" is the key to it all.

I'm sorry to say it, because I know some on this thread are trying really hard, but, trans women don't pass. Ever. Even on a thread. Especially in my office.

OP posts:
StrongLegs · 01/10/2021 18:42

The odd thing is that I do know some beautifully feminine men, who live happily as men and embrace their femininity as men. Just I am a woman who lives as a tomboy.

I wonder why some men are happy to be feminine men, while some want to somehow become women?

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 01/10/2021 18:44

women have their own issues to deal with, we're not put on the earth to soothe male mid life crises.

We're not support humans in the drama of the 'real people' nor an endless supply of validation.

StrongLegs · 01/10/2021 18:46

The thing that puzzles me is how pissed off I feel at the idea of men suddenly taking over womanhood. I mean it's like we're been living this totally shitty "female" rut for years and suddenly there's a risk that men are going to start "being women" and saying that they are better at that then us (like so many other things).

Is that what other people worry about?

StrongLegs · 01/10/2021 18:48

Because if that's the problem then maybe we need to closely define what it is about being female that makes it so hard. If it's something that we have, that doesn't happen to men who have converted to be women, then maybe we could wave that specific flag and say " I still have this hard thing to cope with that you do not have".