what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

ooh, I wonder why people care?

off the top of my head:

Karen White attacking a woman who was locked up with him
Laurel Hubbard stealing Roviel Detenamo's Olympic place
Phillip Bunce rendering the women's toilets out of bounds for some of the women who work with him by using them rather than the gents
Katie Dolotowski assaulting a little girl in a supermarket toilet
Men taking places on the Jo Cox Women in Leadership programme

Yes, why people care is quite the poser

@herethereandeverywhere

Like being paid less, carrying an unequal burden of childcare, social care and domestic chores?

Or dresses, heels and nail varnish?

EXACTLY

I guess it’s not a very thorough or thought through process as it was considered an extremely niche issue unlikely to affect many people at all.

Just reading comments about the number of middle aged men and wonder if some could be having a mid life crisis. Not meant to be offensive or demeaning, genuinely just wondering.

I’m wearing sports shorts from the boys section of Peacocks and a gaming t.shirt and no make up. I’m identifying as a bit of a slob today.

Just typed a massive reply and lost it because the second you navigate away from the page (because my phone rang) it loses it. It's really bloody tedious.

My experiences of being a woman includes.

Being whistled and shouted at by random men from the age of 11 ish because because had boobs.
Being sexually abused including raped. Getting pregnant as a result and having 2 terminations. When i told an adult i was told "men have needs you shouldn't have led him on by wearing short skirts."
Having 2 planned pregnancies. Birthing and breastfeeding them. Having a miscarriage.
Having periods so painful and heavy that even wearing 2 pads at a time I flood through them in half an hour and can't walk further than the bathroom.
Being diagnosed with PCOS.
Being asked why I didn't shave my legs in the summer because its 'embarrassing" being seen with me.

I wear dresses in the summer. Mainly jeans in the winter. Although most days I stay in pyjamas all day. Rarely wear makeup.

So if a man wants to have all of that then he's welcome to swap lives.

It means skirts, high heels, fishnets and makeup, basically.

Stuff that most modern women aren't the slightest bit interested in.

Living as a woman is an utterly meaningless concept and is fucking insultingly sexist to boot.

You either are a woman or you're not, and nothing that you do can change what you are in that respect.

Sorry not sorry.

I just don't see the utility in pretending that we don't understand what it means to "live like a women" in that sense,

but I literally don't

yes, mostly women wear skirts, but putting one on doesn't make a man grow a uterus, does it? It doesn't make him smaller and physically weaker than other men and therefore vulnerable to them. It doesn't over ride his male socialisation.

so yes, I absolutely do reject the idea that dressing in ways women mostly do is anything to do with 'living as a woman'

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I just don't see the utility in pretending that we don't understand what it means to "live like a women" in that sense,

but I literally don't

yes, mostly women wear skirts, but putting one on doesn't make a man grow a uterus, does it? It doesn't make him smaller and physically weaker than other men and therefore vulnerable to them. It doesn't over ride his male socialisation.

so yes, I absolutely do reject the idea that dressing in ways women mostly do is anything to do with 'living as a woman'

So if a man decided to pass himself off as a woman, say because he was a wanted criminal, how would he go about it?

So what would be a better test according to you? I am sure everyone who is really caring about trans rights, and women rights (or any human rights) would love to hear.

The comparisons with the citizenship tests are interesting. I’ve sat one recently, not for the UK, but for another country I’ve been living in for more than ten years. Though a small amount was about geography and history, the vast majority was actually about how the systems here worked, how people are taxed, how the school system is organised, how you access healthcare for yourself and any children. It was actually useful information that would be helpful for any incomer. I passed easily because I’ve used many of the facilities detailed.

And I’ve thought about your question above. Obviously, like most women here, I don’t think a man CAN live as a woman. It’s simply a nonsense statement. So perhaps if there is to be some kind of test, it should be a test that helps men understand what it is like to be a woman. These are things I’ve come up with. Perhaps other women could add. At least with a real test of knowledge, we could get away from the stupid lie that there is a way a man can live that is “as a woman”.

They should have to answer questions pertaining to women’s rights, and how recently women have actually gained them.

They should learn about the sex pay gap and when and why it occurs.

They should learn about rates of criminal offending and the differences between the sexes and how each sex is impacted.

They should be able to answer detailed questions on these things to show that they do have knowledge of it, even if they don’t choose to see the significance and what it means in terms of their own maleness.

Also not as part of a womanhood test, but as a basic minimum, they should have to provide a certificate from the police (as I have to to gain citizenship) to show that they have no criminal record, and absolutely and definitively a record that contains no suggestion of violence or sexual crime.

I’m sure I’ll think of more, and hopefully others could add to it, but at least part of the problem is that these men don’t ever live as women, and being bullied as a man dressed as a woman is not a proxy for womanhood. Perhaps actually learning about women’s lives and how women have been treated historically and continue to be treated now might give them some tiny insight on just how entitled they must be to demand to be handed all the things women have had to fight for, throughout history and through their whole lives.

Jools Why does it matter to me?

I can give you the names of 80 women who have been murdered by men since Sarah Everard was killed. That's why it matters to me, because they don't matter to society, I didn't even know the names of most of them because they aren't even reported in the press as their murders are not even newsworthy.

Why are you being so rude and flippant in tone? "Woman" is MY word, it describes me and the 51% of people who are like me. It defines me in law and every other institution and that is how I am protected and can access the services I need because my female body is very different from yours.

Being female impacts my life in all the ways that femininity does not.

@godmum56

serious question....who decides whether they have achieved it or not?

I was also wondering this. If they think you haven't achieved it, do you get instructions on what to do? Do you have to wait another 2 years, or will they say 'add a kitten heel and come back in 3 months, that should do it' ?

So if a man decided to pass himself off as a woman, say because he was a wanted criminal, how would he go about it?

the only time I have ever heard of a man successfully doing this was by wearing a burqa and niqab. so basically completely covering himself up. is that living as a woman?

@OldCrone

I'd also like to know the answer to this.

My definition would be living as a human being who happens to have a female body. Which would mean that it's impossible for a male person to live as a woman.

So would mine. I can see no benefit whatsoever to society to pretend that biological sex doesn't exist and can be identified out of.

This thread gets to the very heart of this whole lie.

There is no answer because a man cannot become a woman.

I have no problem with "the polite fiction" of addressing someone as she/her if that's what they think will make them feel good.

But don't ask me to avow that the polite fiction is actual fact. Or that "woman" is just a concept or a feeling. And don't ask me to buy into outmoded bigoted binary ways of thinking about humans and tell me it's outmoded, bigoted and binary to not do so. It's gaslighting on an epic scale.

The only way to live is a woman is to have a female body. Anything else is sexist, regressive and offensive shite

I have no problem with "the polite fiction" of addressing someone as she/her if that's what they think will make them feel good.

IS there a difference between such a polite fiction and what Kathleen Stock describes as the immersive fiction ?

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

that is the lived experience of trans people though. They have significant problems accessing health care AND have to subject themselves to checks whether they are "feminine" enough. Once seen your GP in jeans - to the back of the queue you go...

The lived experience of women is that they are told their flagrant cardiology symptoms are anxiety/panic attacks or indigestion.
It can take 15 years (?) to be diagnosed with endometriosis. Women's experience of pain is discounted as an unreliable narrative.

Women are discounted as 'Northern' (for those who recall that incident) and have their mental health deprecated as a ready explanation for so much.

Women report problems asking for sterilisation and being told to wait for 5 years and to involve their partner's permission.

Mumsnet has been involved in campaigns to improve maternity care. Look at the recurrent scandals involving maternity units and people choosing to deprecate women as reliable sources of information on their pregnancy and birth process. This is multiplied for black women who cope with intersecting narratives around pain and giving birth.

So, yes, women have lived experience in vast quantities and it extends beyond a single dimension of healthcare to our entire lifecycles.

Bravo!

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

Bears absolutely no relation to ...

I can give you the names of 80 women who have been murdered by men since Sarah Everard was killed. That's why it matters to me, because they don't matter to society, I didn't even know the names of most of them because they aren't even reported in the press as their murders are not even newsworthy.

I am flippant in response to the first 'Somewhat Goady' question, which comes up on MN on a regular basis (forms the beginnings of some good jokes you see ...)

The women killed that you refer to in the second para are no less important to me than they are to you (and I would under no circumstances be flippant in response to a question about that subject).

Perhaps if you asked the question that you are actually seeking to have answered, things will go better all round.

Ask me a goady/sarcastic question and you will get a sarcastic answer... (seems fair)

My dinosaur bra is green and purple

Hum, secret message ?

I'm feeling particularly cross about this today as I followed a link on another thread and watched this earlier. It appears to be from a US conservative/Conservative religious conference so I expect I would disagree with the speaker on many things, but he's a paediatric endocrinologist with longstanding and distinguished academic and clinical credentials, so I feel it's worth paying attention to what he says.

How have we reached the point where highly educated professional people have waved this nonsense through with no research and clinical justification for it at all?

@anothermansshoes

My dinosaur bra is green and purple

Hum, secret message ?

Please tell me you have a bra with actual dinosaurs on it.

Why don't they tell TW to live as a uterus owner or cervix haver?

Why are we denied woman and they can have it when they have no womb?

I don't find you goody or sarcastic, Joolz. I find your answer is unhelpful as it does not address my point.

The two posts you point to are linked because the one thing that all 80 of those women have in common is that they are female. The one thing connecting each person suspected of murdering them is that they are male.

That IS the point. You cannot identify out of your sex - and had they been able to they may well have survived.

Would you like to help me understand what "live as a woman" means to you?