what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

[quote camaleon]@OchonAgusOchonOh.. so passing a test and living 5 years in the country makes you a 'real' Brit, whatever it means. If some children who have lived all their live here 'feel' British, are they British even if they have another passport.

The law does not give them a passport for how they 'feel', but for 'proving' it with some quite stupid tests, such as 'live like a woman'[/quote]
That is exactly my point. You become a citizen by being able to tick a series of objective check boxes based on where you live, your status, your parents etc.

Whether the child is british or not does not depend on how they feel but rather whether they satisfy the very objective criteria for citizenship.

@Beowulfa All the rules to get a new nationality are based on the rationale that you are 'integrated' one way or another.

Do you identify with a nationality? What does it mean? Can you answer that question without using stereotypes?

I have no clue what a trans person feels. I just accept this as well as the fact this has always existed in every society. I don't need to mock them. It would be much better to use all this energy in finding solutions for a minority that has problems to fit in the world we have as it is.

But go ahead and have a good laugh...

The law doesn't talk about being a "real" Brit. You're either a citizen or you're not. If you're a citizen, you either acquired citizenship by birth or by application.

Exactly.

[quote FlyingOink]We could all get one, you're supposed to swear to live "as the opposite sex" for the rest of your life, but I guess they couldn't really stop you changing back if you wanted to:

www.gov.uk/APPLY-GENDER-RECOGNITION-CERTIFICATE[/quote]
I quite like the sound of this. I've got all the masculine clothes (last wore a dress in 2018) don't own shoes with heels or makeup and could put my long hair up in a "man bun" so just changing my name on a few things sounds like a piece of piss.

So easy to get all the benefits of being a man! Higher pay, better promotion, not having to do the ironing...

Win-win!

Nationality is a concept invented by humans, as is 'gender'.

Sex is not a concept but an innate factual reality that cannot be 'identified' into.

@OchonAgusOchonOh So what would be a better test according to you? I am sure everyone who is really caring about trans rights, and women rights (or any human rights) would love to hear.

@goinggently

Nationality is a concept invented by humans, as is 'gender'.

Sex is not a concept but an innate factual reality that cannot be 'identified' into.

I very much agree, but transpeople still exist. And most people feel they belong to a nationality and it is something extremely important to them.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

I've never worked it out. I don't do 'woman' very well. I know that because over the last few years I've been told by two transwomen in frills and make-up that I should 'make more of myself', whatever that means. I don't wear dresses and make-up and I don't spend my time worrying about my hair or looking at myself in a mirror. Despite all that I'm still female and still a woman. I wonder if someone will come and inspect me one day and decide I don't make the grade and will need to be sent to 'living like a woman' school.

Men are rude to me and talk over me and refuse to listen to me. The BT engineer's just told me that my wifi hub hasn't been down for most of the morning, even though I have images and records showing that it has. So maybe this means I'm living as a woman?

OK, I am probably showing my ignorance here, but what I can't understand is there seem to be 2 types of transperson:

1. adopts the stereotypical behaviours of the sex they want to be - this is sexist and offensive and they are never going to achieve "being a woman" because it's biologically impossible
2. doesn't present as stereotypical of the sex they want to be - in which case, why bother transitioning? What on earth do you think "being in girl mode all the time" (to quote Eddie Izzard) is going to actually DO for you?

@Sexnotgender

The law doesn't talk about being a "real" Brit. You're either a citizen or you're not. If you're a citizen, you either acquired citizenship by birth or by application.

Exactly.

How is this different from changing sex in a certificate?

And you insist in denying that these tests are not desgined on proving you are behaving like a Brit or having the knwoledge of what being British mean, but they are. They explicitly are.

IIRC, you're allowed to have two goes at gender reassignment, as the law recognises that you may not have the support you need the first time. This seems very humane, though I see problems with it:

1. Detransitioners report that they have to go through the reassignment process again when they detransition; they can't just desist.

1. Where does this leave anyone who announces they're 'gender fluid' or have 'boy mode' & 'girl mode'? It would seem they can't legally reassign their gender; or having reassigned from boy to girl mode, they can't flip flop. But who would check?

[quote camaleon]@CharlieParley Again, I know the test extremely well. It is almost impossible you know these rules better than I do for professional reasons. The rationale for the test is what it is.

And the knowledge you need to demonstrate is totally absurd in terms of proving you understand what being British means. But I guess you would be happy if we changed 'live as a woman' by a test about 'women'.

It would for sure be much easier and fairer.[/quote]
Nonsense.

Your argument was that the citizenship application process is concerned with identity and feelings. It isn't.

I understand the rationale behind the test perfectly well, and based on your somewhat strange statements, I'll take your claim of professional knowledge under advisement while remembering that on the internet anyone can claim to be a dog.

As for "living as a woman", there is only one way to do so, and that is to be a female human adult. You literally cannot do it wrong, because all you need to do is be born female and live to 18.

Of course, we can easily test if anyone meets those criteria. Simple chromosome test will do for 99.something percent of us. So would a simple body check, because phenotype and genotype agree in 99.something percent of us too.

Of course trans people exist, I don't think anybody would deny that...

@LobsterNapkin

I don't think you can push this phrase all that far, it was never intended to be used that way.

All it really means is that the person in question is meant to present themselves socially and administratively as female. So showing the usual range of cultural markers that we expect of women in our society.

In general I don't think it's true to say that these kinds of cultural markers we attach to sex are "stereotypes." They aren't what make people male or female, but they are ways, taken together, that culture reflects sexual dimorphism.

What are the “usual range of cultural markers”?

I have a relative who is a transwomen. They also believe that ‘Living as a woman’ is to grow their hair long and wear it everyday in a ponytail, they have adopted a Minnie Mouse type voice (minus the American accent!), makeup and nail polish every day, knee length skirts with 30 denier tights, court shoes, sparkly pink tops and a cardigan. They also now sleep in nightdresses with Disney characters on them.
As a biologically born woman, living as a woman (currently perimenopausal), my account of ‘Living as a woman’ is a bit different.

[quote camaleon]@OchonAgusOchonOh So what would be a better test according to you? I am sure everyone who is really caring about trans rights, and women rights (or any human rights) would love to hear.[/quote]
I don't think there should be a test.

Personally, I think we should abolish the notion of gender entirely. Let people live as they wish with some limitations based on sex. For example, it is reasonable to have a mixture of single sex and mixed sex toilets and changing facilities provided there are single sex facilities available in sufficient numbers to allow a real choice.

In sports where there is no physiological advantage to being male or female, they should be mixed sex. This already happens (e.g. show jumping). In sports where there is a physiological advantage, two extra categories of trans man and trans woman could be added.

Prisons, refuges etc - if necessary open up additional ones for mixed sex or for trans men/women but retain single sex spaces to protect those who are more vulnerable.

If someone still wishes to transition physically, I think the approach used in the past of counselling etc to determine the reasons for the gender dysphoria and whether it is the correct path for them is a more sensible approach.

It was definitely suggested that campaigners for women's suffrage were defying the traditional cultural markers of femininity with their shrill voices, presumptious demands and most unladylike brick-chucking.

@DadOnIce
And Sikh men have long hair too does this mean all Sikh men are living as women?? Lol.

Citizenship tests are a clumsy tool for sure, but having helped a colleague with hers I could see that some thought had gone into the range of questions (basics of everyday life, laws, infrastructure, history, geography, culture, modern diversity etc). As pointed out by another poster, it's part of a process that includes proof of residency, occupation, qualifications etc. It checks whether you legally qualify, and if you know that life in Britain is not the same as say the US or Albania. I prefer this to the situation a relative has in Thailand (Thai wife and kids, but unable to own property in the same way, visa dependent on a specific job and Thai nationality only available by bribing a very senior official).

@Nowayhozay

Clearly it means to live and work 24/7 whilst presenting as female

But what is that?

I'm female and I present in trousers, boots, short hair and no makeup.

@Nowayhozay

Clearly it means to live and work 24/7 whilst presenting as female

So in other words living as a man that wears traditionally female clothes and make up. Glad that's cleared up!

@Embroidery

Dress from dorothy perkins or m and s. Shaved legs and tan stockings. Heels. Nail varnish Foundation, powder, mascara, rouge, lipstick. Eyebrows done. Long blowdryed hair.

One of the problems is, this isn't what a woman is.

Jeffree Star does all of these things, and he’s very much a man 🤔

Well if this is what identifying as a woman means, I am obviously identifying as a man. Off to sit on a train taking over 2 seats spreading my legs, making casually sexist remarks, expect a big increase in salary for no extra work, going to put in some weight with no comment, going to walk out on my family as soon as kids leave home for a woman young enough to be my daughter, going to take up a hobby that takes load of time and money (I’ve earned it after all) then off to join the Freemasons fucking fantastic, who knew I was a bloke

All the rules to get a new nationality are based on the rationale that you are 'integrated' one way or another.

For which the government has devised objective tests, such as being able to understand and speak the English language and knowing how life in the UK works (hence the name of the test). Part of that test are general knowledge questions about British history, politics and culture which are objectively justifiable. If you want to become a citizen of a country, you should be able to show that you know some basic facts about that country.

At no point did anyone check whether I identified with the nationality or whether I felt British.

Do you identify with a nationality? What does it mean? Can you answer that question without using stereotypes?

That is irrelevant to this issue. We are talking about material reality (being male or female or meeting the criteria for citizenship or not) and identity and feelings are not relevant in answering the question of what sex I am or whether I qualify for citizenship or not.

It would be impossible to base citizenship decisions on identity.

[quote camaleon]@Beowulfa All the rules to get a new nationality are based on the rationale that you are 'integrated' one way or another.

Do you identify with a nationality? What does it mean? Can you answer that question without using stereotypes?

I have no clue what a trans person feels. I just accept this as well as the fact this has always existed in every society. I don't need to mock them. It would be much better to use all this energy in finding solutions for a minority that has problems to fit in the world we have as it is.

But go ahead and have a good laugh...[/quote]
Apples and pears.

You don't acquire british nationality by proving that for the last five years you chose tea over coffee, you got excited when England won a football match, talked about the weather a lot and never had fish and chips without mushy peas.

Trans women dont have to sit a test where they asked at what age you can expect perimenopausal symptoms to start, in which year equal pay legislation was passed and how different the signs of cardiovascular disease are in women.