what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

To be laying under a hoarded box of rights. At least that’s how I’ve spent the last week!

@camaleon

If you have ever looked at any of the 'nationality test' around the world to prove you understand the rules of what being 'British' or 'Canadian' or whatever, means, you would also be offended. What does it mean you feel British? Or Spanish? My guess is you cannot answer that without a shit load of stereotypes that are extremely offensive. Still, people 'feel' a nationality and they have to jump a few loops to acquire a different one to the one adjudicated at birth (if you are not stateless).

You can be as offended as you wish, but some identities are difficult to explain despite having a profound meaning to most people. It is totally easy to present it all as a caricature or you can try to make a minimum effort to understand this.

I've just been through that process and I can assure you no one asks if you feel British when you apply for citizenship. Frankly, no one gives a shit and nor should they.

The only thing that matters in deciding a citizenship applications are facts. Material reality. Not identity.

@AlfonsoTheDinosaur

When you witches find out, let me know!

Ditto!

@camaleon

If you have ever looked at any of the 'nationality test' around the world to prove you understand the rules of what being 'British' or 'Canadian' or whatever, means, you would also be offended. What does it mean you feel British? Or Spanish? My guess is you cannot answer that without a shit load of stereotypes that are extremely offensive. Still, people 'feel' a nationality and they have to jump a few loops to acquire a different one to the one adjudicated at birth (if you are not stateless).

You can be as offended as you wish, but some identities are difficult to explain despite having a profound meaning to most people. It is totally easy to present it all as a caricature or you can try to make a minimum effort to understand this.

Yes but feeling a nationality doesn't make you that nationality. In order to be a nationality you have to be able to tick very binary, very objective, tick boxes. Were you born in the country y/n Have you lived there for the requisite number of years y/n Are your parents that nationality y/n.

I can feel as Swiss, for example, as I like. I love chocolate and am a fan of accurate timepieces. Still doesn't make me Swiss and the Swiss will not accept my feelings of being Swiss as sufficient for nationality.

@CharlieParley Literally, "The test is designed to prove that the applicant has sufficient knowledge of British life..." and it is linked to British values.

You may think it is rubbish and nobody cares, but the situation is the same. Many countries have these test to prove you understand what being 'British' or whatever means. It is the exact purpose of the test

@Runningupthecurtains

So if your name name is already Chris, Alex or Sam it means the square root of fuck all then?

Presumably, yes.

It is sexist when standards of femininity are applied by legal or medical gatekeepers to transwomen.

That is because standards of femininity are in themselves, sexist.

They are made of sexism, that is literally and entirely what they are.

This ideology has taken sexist tropes and turned them into an innate 'gendered' self - a 'gender identity' - and postulates that we all identify with 'gender' as if it is a thing meaningfully tied to sex/body/reality. It then erases sex, leaving us this disembodied theory created out of sexism, hot air and confusion.

So if a doctor expects a male to dress a certain way to 'live as a woman' it's only because the doctor is adhering to the nonsense that is genderology.

There is NO WAY for anyone to obtain a GRC that isn't going to be sexist, because the fiction that someone's 'gender' is fixed is in itself innately sexist. Why I find it amazing that anyone can complain about how 'sexist' the process is!

I don't think you can push this phrase all that far, it was never intended to be used that way.

All it really means is that the person in question is meant to present themselves socially and administratively as female. So showing the usual range of cultural markers that we expect of women in our society.

In general I don't think it's true to say that these kinds of cultural markers we attach to sex are "stereotypes." They aren't what make people male or female, but they are ways, taken together, that culture reflects sexual dimorphism.

@OchonAgusOchonOh.. so passing a test and living 5 years in the country makes you a 'real' Brit, whatever it means. If some children who have lived all their live here 'feel' British, are they British even if they have another passport.

The law does not give them a passport for how they 'feel', but for 'proving' it with some quite stupid tests, such as 'live like a woman'

Well, as it is now forming the basis for law and regulations that have real world consequences, I think it's yet another term that is far too blooming vague to base legislative change on.

In the case of a trans woman I used to work with: using she/her pronouns widely (at work, etc), presenting generally as a woman (including, yes, probably some stereotypes about femininity - she wasn't particularly 'stereotyped girly', and she said her first doctor had questioned this), changing to Miss/Ms on forms etc, using a female name (again - hers was not obviously a man or woman's name, and the clinic made a point of saying so).

Basically they wanted her to 'pass' in a quite stereotypical way, but I assume this is partly to check someone is committed to medical transition (as this was her aim) and almost as a test of her... genuine transness?

She felt as though they actually treated her quite badly at times, as to look at she just looks quite butch - she felt as though they expected long hair and tea dresses. This was a decade ago, though.

[quote camaleon]@CharlieParley Literally, "The test is designed to prove that the applicant has sufficient knowledge of British life..." and it is linked to British values.

You may think it is rubbish and nobody cares, but the situation is the same. Many countries have these test to prove you understand what being 'British' or whatever means. It is the exact purpose of the test[/quote]
I’m sorry, I thought you said it was testing for feelings of identity?

That sounds like an objective test of knowledge

@334bu

I do not believe that there is a definition set out in the GRA. However, here in Scotland in the context of the Gender Equality on Public Boards Act(Scotland), the following definition is given for those considered to be women for the purpose of the Act( no GRC required, only self id)

3. be living as a woman

This would not require the person to dress, look or behave in any particular way. However, it would be expected that there would be evidence that the person was continuously living as a woman, such as – always using female pronouns; using a female name on official documents such as a driving licence or passport, or on utility bills or bank accounts; using female titles; updating the gender marker to female on official documents such as a driving licence or passport; describing themselves and being described by others in written or other communication as a woman.

I knew there was some pish about a “female name” but couldn’t remember where! Thanks

[quote camaleon]@CharlieParley Literally, "The test is designed to prove that the applicant has sufficient knowledge of British life..." and it is linked to British values.

You may think it is rubbish and nobody cares, but the situation is the same. Many countries have these test to prove you understand what being 'British' or whatever means. It is the exact purpose of the test[/quote]
That test, which I had to take and passed, tests your knowledge about facts of Life in the UK.

Knowledge, not feelings or identity.

On values, again it doesn't ask about feelings or identity, it asks about whether the UK is a democratic state, whether we have laws that respect people's human rights, the justice system and so on.

Have pain every month and night sweats, fight to be taken seriously by a doctor? Get things mansplained to you? Be called a nag for wanting a bit of help with housework whilst working full time. Remember everyone’s birthdays? Hmmmnn what else... I wish I could live as a man for 2 years!

I used to work in another hospital that had a 'gender clinic'. On a Friday men would come in that would be 'living as a woman ' for a year, Depending on their age they would either dress like a frumpy woman, bad wig (the mother) or have a little black leather mini skirt on, high heels and trowelled on make up (the whore) cos yeah we are all one or the other, right???!!!

@ArabellaScott

Well, as it is now forming the basis for law and regulations that have real world consequences, I think it's yet another term that is far too blooming vague to base legislative change on.

So it would be better to write a short handbook and then test people who want to prove that they 'live like a woman' to pass it.

It is absurd but a widely used tool used to fit any legal category you don't fit yet.

I have witnessed plenty of processes where people had to prove their 'love' was real to demosntrate it was not a 'bogus' marriage. Just becuase the marriage was linked to a set of new rights. You can marry a man for convenience no problem as long as you are both of the same nationality for instance. Otherwise, you can find yourself answering quite a lot of stupid questions to prove you are legit.

I’d make people have a bag full of partially clotted blood implanted between their legs, ready to explode at any time every 28 days 🤣 That would focus the mind on being female.

@LobsterNapkin

I don't think you can push this phrase all that far, it was never intended to be used that way.

All it really means is that the person in question is meant to present themselves socially and administratively as female. So showing the usual range of cultural markers that we expect of women in our society.

In general I don't think it's true to say that these kinds of cultural markers we attach to sex are "stereotypes." They aren't what make people male or female, but they are ways, taken together, that culture reflects sexual dimorphism.

The only markers I apply to determine whether someone is a woman is their biological status. Applying any other markers is sexist.

I look at a person wearing jeans, docs, a hoodie, short hair. They could be male or female. I look at someone who is at home minding their children. They could be male or female. I look at someone working as a plumber. They could be male or female. I look at someone working as a nurse. They could be male or female.

Why are TRAs trying to reverse decades of work that achieved some level (but still a lot to go) of equality of opportunity? Why do they want women and men to be pigeon holed into caricatures of woman/man?

@herethereandeverywhere

Like being paid less, carrying an unequal burden of childcare, social care and domestic chores?

Or dresses, heels and nail varnish?

Bunions, blisters or morton's neuromas from wearing said heels?

C-section wounds, prolapses, stretch marks from pregnancy, up and down weight loss or old age?

All of the above or none?

I wish they would get it into their heads women are people and are very different, apart from the fact that no biological woman 'knows' what being a woman feels like because there is no such feeling.

@CharlieParley Again, I know the test extremely well. It is almost impossible you know these rules better than I do for professional reasons. The rationale for the test is what it is.

And the knowledge you need to demonstrate is totally absurd in terms of proving you understand what being British means. But I guess you would be happy if we changed 'live as a woman' by a test about 'women'.

It would for sure be much easier and fairer.

what does it mean "live as a woman"

they have to shave twice a day and wear a frock.

Citizenship tests for nationality status are nothing to do with stereotypes or identity, they're designed to assess whether you do actually know some facts about the country.

So for the UK, there might be questions testing whether candidates know about the devolved nations and different laws within the UK (eg that Holyrood is the base for the Scottish parliament), the age children start/leave school, the age for drinking/voting/driving etc and a bit of basic culture/history like Shakespeare and the Romans.

There is no scientific basis "living like a woman" unless you mean people who experience female biology.

The "using a female name" thing just makes me laugh. What about women born to parents who liked the idea of giving their daughters "male" names? Am I less of a woman because my name is one traditionally used by men? If I were to decide I feel like a man would I need to change my name at all? Ridiculous!

[quote camaleon]@OchonAgusOchonOh.. so passing a test and living 5 years in the country makes you a 'real' Brit, whatever it means. If some children who have lived all their live here 'feel' British, are they British even if they have another passport.

The law does not give them a passport for how they 'feel', but for 'proving' it with some quite stupid tests, such as 'live like a woman'[/quote]
That is wrong too. If it ever matters, the law treats me as what I am: someone who was not born a British citizen but who acquired citizenship by application.

The law doesn't talk about being a "real" Brit. You're either a citizen or you're not. If you're a citizen, you either acquired citizenship by birth or by application.

Quite frankly, the Life in the UK test is a tiny part of the application process. If you don't meet the other criteria, you do not qualify.

If you knew anything about the process, you would know that.

[quote camaleon]@CharlieParley Literally, "The test is designed to prove that the applicant has sufficient knowledge of British life..." and it is linked to British values.

You may think it is rubbish and nobody cares, but the situation is the same. Many countries have these test to prove you understand what being 'British' or whatever means. It is the exact purpose of the test[/quote]
The situation is absolutely not the same don’t be ridiculous.