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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

what does it mean "live as a woman"?

999 replies

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 13:23

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

OP posts:
NeverDropYourMooncup · 01/10/2021 14:20

I know a few people who are doing exactly that. All older/middleaged, none with children.

One has been on the waiting for a Gender Identity Clinic appointment since 2018 and one in a different area got seen more quickly, so is already on hormone therapy and the surgical waiting list (paused due to Covid, has to wait until urgent/life saving/pain relieving surgeries are dealt with before anything else happens).

It means only using the chosen name in all circumstances - work, personally, on official documents - and adopting what The Clinic will deem appropriate female clothing and appearance all the time as well.

So they have grown their hair long and had highlights - apparently, despite having a moderate level of male pattern hair loss, they would be viewed as being 'more dedicated' to make the change to natural hair rather than a wig.

They've lost a lot of weight so that their waist measurement is low enough to fit small size women's clothing.

They feel that in order to be taken seriously and not refused treatment when they eventually get an appointment, they have to wear feminine clothing at all times - which means the outdated Office Appropriate wear of knee high skirts, blouses, court shoes, tights and carry a handbag whilst wearing makeup every day.

Where they have a hobby that isn't necessarily seen as traditionally feminine (which is bollocks, it's the same as mine), it's been suggested that they don't mention the fact that they do this whilst wearing sensible footwear. Or at all unless asked about it.

It all sounds a bit shit, really - to access an appointment, they have to conform to other men's notions of what a woman should look like and behave with no support for the entire waiting period with the underlying fear that they could get there, having been subjected to threats/violence from men, insults and abuse from anybody (seen that happen) and deal with all that involves, only to be told 'you aren't womanly enough, do it better and come back next year'. And because they've requested this referral, they're not able to access counselling, IAPT or any other support - it's as though the attitude is 'depressed? Oh, that'll be your gender identity, so we won't/can't help with that? Traumatised from an assault when your workplace was robbed? Oh, that'll be your gender identity, which is outside the counselling team's remit. Anxious - Covid, being assaulted, having drunk men shout at you as you're waiting for a bus on a Saturday afternoon, maybe even not being anxious but potentially developing thyroid issues when you look at the weight loss, hair loss and rapid heartbeat? Ah, that'll be your gender identity, no blood tests necessary and no, you won't be prescribed anything to help with the symptoms because we won't even check if it's a physical thing'.

In fairness, some of this is probably living more as a woman than anticipated - the 'it's all in your head, dear, do try and pull yourself together' is very much a woman's experience in Medicine, as does the having to second guess male intentions 24/7 - and the sense that Men will be judging if you're good enough.

I think in some ways the longer wait has almost tempered their emotions in that whilst they were very angry about 2-3 years in and everything was about how badly they were being treated, solely because of their identity and appearance and anger about how laser treatment for facial hair wasn't quickly available until I asked them if they knew it isn't even available at all for me on the NHS even though I'm none too impressed by what my chin and neck produces overnight either , the last time some random had a go at them at the supermarket for not getting out of the way fast enough, their response was 'Suppose the best bit about that was he called me a stupid fucking woman. Still a twat, though'.

JoodyBlue · 01/10/2021 14:20

@Falderal

"My body makes me a women. Everything else is just set-dressing."

thanks for this - perfect response

Yes - thanks @Falderal, that's a clear statement and I agree with it.

It is also worth noting that women have a life cycle. A woman's life cycle may include onset of menses, pregnancy (miscarriage), breastfeeding, peri menopause, post menopause. So all women's lives change over time. Mens do too of course. But there is no sensible way of considering that someone can live "as a woman" that does not take this as primary.

I often think easy access to contraception has made us forget this.

Ionlydomassiveones · 01/10/2021 14:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

FlyingOink · 01/10/2021 14:21

If a GRC costs £5, how much do we reckon the actual process costs?
New passport and driving licence, but getting the bills changed is free.

Feasibly a large contingent of women (preferably over 65 so as to not affect state pension) could all get GRCs as men and then change back two years later.
Ten thousand would be good. That's double the number of GRCs ever issued.

What does "living as a man" look like though?

Chersfrozenface · 01/10/2021 14:27

"Using a female name"?

What if you choose Hilary or Frankie or Alex? What if you make up a name (could mention some well-known examples but won't)?

CatherinaJTV · 01/10/2021 14:30

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I doubt it means being paid less or having your healthcare needs taken less seriously.

As in so many areas I gather most of us are living as the wrong type of woman …

that is the lived experience of trans people though. They have significant problems accessing health care AND have to subject themselves to checks whether they are "feminine" enough. Once seen your GP in jeans - to the back of the queue you go...
DobbyTheHouseElk · 01/10/2021 14:32

I’d never pass. I’m always in jeans and trainers. Don’t own a blouse.

Ohsugarhoneyicetea · 01/10/2021 14:36

@Nowayhozay

Clearly it means to live and work 24/7 whilst presenting as female
So if I think they still look like a male then they are not actually 'living as a woman'? Cause I think that would cover 99% of transwomen.
ArabellaScott · 01/10/2021 14:36

@LaBellina

I once met a transgender woman trough my job, this person was going trough this exact proces. In their case it meant dressing like a woman and trying to pass for one, in every aspect of life including work.
dressing like a woman

I'm wearing jeans, a T shirt and a warm jumper. Birkenstocks. In what way am I 'dressing like a woman'?

LaBellina · 01/10/2021 14:38

I have already answered that upthread…

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 01/10/2021 14:39

Everybody knows it’s shoes and lipstick.

It cannot be a cervix, we’ve been told that very clearly.,

LaBellina · 01/10/2021 14:40

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Everybody knows it’s shoes and lipstick.

It cannot be a cervix, we’ve been told that very clearly.,

Grin shit I’m wearing trainers and no lipstick today
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 01/10/2021 14:42

Go away and come back when you are a proper woman.

Honestly, some people…

LaBellina · 01/10/2021 14:44
Grin

Ok I just applied some fuchsia lipstick and put on a pair of leopard stiletto heels.
Phew.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 01/10/2021 14:44

that is the lived experience of trans people though. They have significant problems accessing health care AND have to subject themselves to checks whether they are "feminine" enough. Once seen your GP in jeans - to the back of the queue you go...

The lived experience of women is that they are told their flagrant cardiology symptoms are anxiety/panic attacks or indigestion.
It can take 15 years (?) to be diagnosed with endometriosis. Women's experience of pain is discounted as an unreliable narrative.

Women are discounted as 'Northern' (for those who recall that incident) and have their mental health deprecated as a ready explanation for so much.

Women report problems asking for sterilisation and being told to wait for 5 years and to involve their partner's permission.

Mumsnet has been involved in campaigns to improve maternity care. Look at the recurrent scandals involving maternity units and people choosing to deprecate women as reliable sources of information on their pregnancy and birth process. This is multiplied for black women who cope with intersecting narratives around pain and giving birth.

So, yes, women have lived experience in vast quantities and it extends beyond a single dimension of healthcare to our entire lifecycles.

godmum56 · 01/10/2021 14:46

serious question....who decides whether they have achieved it or not?

StrongLegs · 01/10/2021 14:46

This drives me mad too. I feel as though I have to spend every minute of my life trying to be like a man in order to survive as a woman, and now suddenly all the men are announcing that they are women.

Well okay, but I hope they realise that they're going to have to behave like fake men in order for that to work.

Shehasadiamondinthesky · 01/10/2021 14:47

It means getting off your arse and doing the washing up and ironing of an evening and not spending the entire day on the x-box.
Being abused by policeman probably helps as well.

Beowulfa · 01/10/2021 14:47

A friend once commented that I open a newspaper at the sports pages first "just like a man". Handy tip for those in the waiting room at the genderwoo clinic- be sure to be intensely interested in battered 11 month old copies of Grazia. If there are any copies of The Economist or the sports section of The Times lying around, don't touch them, it's a trap.

Runningupthecurtains · 01/10/2021 14:48

So if your name name is already Chris, Alex or Sam it means the square root of fuck all then?

2bazookas · 01/10/2021 14:49

transcare.ucsf.edu/transition-roadmap

Aposterhasnoname · 01/10/2021 14:49

@godmum56

serious question....who decides whether they have achieved it or not?
Serious answer, they take your word for it. Even when it’s bloody obvious you haven’t done much.
DadOnIce · 01/10/2021 14:51

@Chersfrozenface

"Using a female name"?

What if you choose Hilary or Frankie or Alex? What if you make up a name (could mention some well-known examples but won't)?

Indeed, or Chris or Sam or Rowan. And what if you happen to be a Sikh, for whom almost all first names are unisex? It doesn't make sense and I bet they've not even thought of that.
camaleon · 01/10/2021 14:51

If you have ever looked at any of the 'nationality test' around the world to prove you understand the rules of what being 'British' or 'Canadian' or whatever, means, you would also be offended.
What does it mean you feel British? Or Spanish? My guess is you cannot answer that without a shit load of stereotypes that are extremely offensive. Still, people 'feel' a nationality and they have to jump a few loops to acquire a different one to the one adjudicated at birth (if you are not stateless).

You can be as offended as you wish, but some identities are difficult to explain despite having a profound meaning to most people. It is totally easy to present it all as a caricature or you can try to make a minimum effort to understand this.

NewlyGranny · 01/10/2021 14:53

It's a silly question, really.The 'live as a woman' or 'live as a man' for that matter, are worded so vaguely as tom ake it obvious that it means whatever someone attempting it wants it to mean!

Though I understand that you are eoxpected to be able to show that you're now Susie rather than Steve, or vice versa, on your bank account and gasbill, and have been for two years. I don't think you need to do anything more than this.