Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

what does it mean "live as a woman"?

999 replies

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 13:23

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

OP posts:
Runningupthecurtains · 07/10/2021 22:57

How long until some entitled man insists he should get in of those 64 spaces because his trauma blah blah blah.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/10/2021 23:01

It gets worse. On the thread where we were discussing this, @FlyingOink found out that

Initial boards - Individuals on arrival at a prison/AP or the first time an individual discloses their gender identity or transgender status. Initial Local Case Boards must be held within 14 days as per the policy. Note this is WITHIN 14 days and good practice would be to convene the board as soon as you are able to.

according to www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-care-and-management-of-individuals-who-are-transgender

But mothers and babies don't seem to have a policy that a board must be convened within 14 days to discuss their welfare.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4356627-Womens-Wellbeing-in-Prisons?pg=3

NiceGerbil · 07/10/2021 23:05

Wow.

There's for years been a lot of pushing etc. From many orgs and individuals. To look at the situation with women and prison for years. For loads of reasons. To do with the drivers for the crime, the frequent incidence of abusive relationships with it not being unusual for the man to have instigated the thing. Way less in for violent offences than men. Impact on existing children/ those born in prison. Loads of stuff.

RedDogsBeg · 07/10/2021 23:07

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]It gets worse. On the thread where we were discussing this, @FlyingOink found out that

Initial boards - Individuals on arrival at a prison/AP or the first time an individual discloses their gender identity or transgender status. Initial Local Case Boards must be held within 14 days as per the policy. Note this is WITHIN 14 days and good practice would be to convene the board as soon as you are able to.

according to www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-care-and-management-of-individuals-who-are-transgender

But mothers and babies don't seem to have a policy that a board must be convened within 14 days to discuss their welfare.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4356627-Womens-Wellbeing-in-Prisons?pg=3[/quote]
Trans - the Golden Ticket to special treatment and yet they are supposedly the most oppressed ever, ever, in the whole world.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/10/2021 23:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/10/2021 23:13

Oh, no, Paris Green! Not Paris Lees.

Oops.

OP posts:
BrandineDelRoy · 07/10/2021 23:16

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.
Having to wear wigs, makeup, and tights while in jail sounds like cruel and unusual punishment. But, then, I'm female.
NiceGerbil · 07/10/2021 23:27

On prisons.

The thing that MASSIVELY fucks me off.

Is that for me and I suspect many women on here the massive issues with prisons has been in focus for YEARS.

The whole shebang.

Suicides and bullying in YOI.
Violence, and massive disasterous drugs issue in male prisons. Spice is the main problem I believe. Plus other issues.
The nature of the cohort of women in prison. In the end. Do so many women need to be in prison? If non violent, not the main actor, forced by a partner, kids in care no mum etc etc. Why are they there? Is it helping anything? Are they likely to reoffend? Are they a risk to public? Etc etc.

The whole shebang. Oh and obv the outsourcing disaster that has made it all loads worse esp for male prisons.

But it's always. Oh you don't care about the women you don't care about the violence with men blah blah you just hate..

It's all reversal.

This whole thing. I mean apart from all the obvious. It's just this total, often gleeful, pissing all over women who disagree that a man is a woman if he says so. Often activists, feminists who have been concerned about, reading about, marching for, raising awareness of, volunteering to try to help not just women and girls but loads of other issues as well.

NiceGerbil · 07/10/2021 23:29

In a women's prison things like makeup are desirable luxuries. To enjoy or to trade...

NiceGerbil · 07/10/2021 23:53

Another example of gleeful misogny. Misogny that imo is in your face utter hatred of women and girls (female).

Lil OJ retweeted something from the Scottish person who is really scared of ribbons.

It said (paraphrasing).

How fucking stupid are women and girls that they think a sign on a door can stop a sex offender?
If they want to rape a woman or a girl then they will! And there's nothing anyone can do at all. Hahaha! Idiots. They are going to get raped whatever they do! Lol a sign does nothing! Oh excuse me this is the ladies you shouldn't be here. Can you imagine? Oh I won't rape you after all. Hilarious! Teehee!

Etc etc.

Lil OJ has zillions of followers and he saw fit to retweet something with loads of comments pissing pissing themselves laughing because as far as they're concerned. Posting about how pointless and stupid it is to imagine that anything can be done about women and girls being raped. It's inevitable. Hahaha!.

And I bet all these areseholes were expressing shock anger and handwringing over SE and MVAWG needs to be a priority it must stop. I know for a fact OJ was and he got a huge bollocking. So then he vanished all the comments from his posts. The cowardly little turd.

Helen8220 · 08/10/2021 01:28

@BrandineDelRoy
I have so much in common with other females that I'd prefer to be naked in front of a random female stranger than I would my brother (who I love and trust).

I’d rather be naked in front of a random female or male stranger rather than my brother (who I love and trust) - as that would be incredibly uncomfortable for both of us!

@NecessaryScene
So what do I have in common - that actually matters in terms of who I am - with you or any other woman, that I don’t have in common with @ButterflyHatched ?*

You're female. If you think that doesn't matter in terms of who you are, you're simply wrong. (And I wonder why you're on a feminist forum). I wonder though - what else would you say "wouldn't matter in terms of who you are"? How far does this go? Age? Race? Disability? Gender reassignment? Religion? Species? Nationality? Language? Height? Hair colour? I'm curious where you're drawing the line here.

I didn’t say that being a woman wasn’t an important part of who I am. What I said was that the things suggested by others as being the universal female experiences that natal woman share but trans women do not, were not important parts of who I am.

Obviously all the things you listed contribute to my sense of self, to greater or lesser degrees. Just as being a woman - in social rather than biological terms - plays a fairly important role.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

A need for smear tests not prostate exams. The need for medical staff to check for potential pregnancy before administering an x-ray? The ability of said medical professionals to rule out certain illnesses when treating you because they only affect people with XY chromosomes?
None of those things really features heavily in my sense of who I am.

@MonsignorMirth
I don't think I've done any of those things Helen. Can we try not to generalise on here?

Sorry, the “you” wasn’t aimed at you.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Because, @Helen8220* biology, homones, socialisation, experience and all those things that immutably separate men from women, women from men. Not the lady brain shite but the reality of sex base differences compounded by social mores and socialisation.

I just don’t think the socialisation and experience parts are sufficiently consistent and universal to support the kind of neat, absolute categorisation you’re arguing for.

I may not speak for you, all women, or many women, But no man can speak about those things inherently female with any undertsanding or true empathy at all. Which was the point I was making. Which is why I said a woman not all women. Surprising what you find when you read the whole post!!

So what you seem to be saying is that Butterfly can’t speak ‘as a woman’ because - on the basis of your definition - she isn’t a woman? Sounds circular? Or if you mean that Butterfly can’t know what it feels like to have a period, then that’s true, but I don’t know what it feels like to be pregnant - so how are you deciding which experiences define and are essential to womanhood?

Helen8220 · 08/10/2021 01:42

And two thoughts on comments not directed at me:

  1. On the ‘don’t bring people with DSDs into this’ thing. I’ve said it before elsewhere, but to reiterate, that is not a universal sentiment among people with intersex variations. My colleague has Swyer syndrome and is fully supportive of her condition being used to illustrate that biological sex is not always binary, and in support of the inclusion and acceptance of trans people. She has also said that the vast majority of other people she knows with intersex variations feel similarly.
  1. On the whole “just no”, “a woman’s “no” should always be enough” thing - doesn’t it depend on the question? If it’s “can I have sex with you?”, “can I touch you?”, “can I make personal comments about your appearance?” - then absolutely, I agree 100%. But not so much if the question is “could you possibly move a little to the left, I can’t see the bus timetable?” or “would you mind not calling me ‘Alan’ as my name is ‘Helen’?”
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/10/2021 01:44

You've tagged the wrong person.

@Runningupthecurtains asked that at 05/10/2021 08:16.

However, may I point out you didn't ask about the "sense of who [you] are"? You said "So what do I have in common - that actually matters in terms of who I am - with you or any other woman, that I don’t have in common with ButterflyHatched?"

Personally, I think maximising all our chances of not dying actually matters in terms of who we are, but maybe the viewpoint that I want medics to notice if I, my sister or my daughter have the signs of an ectopic pregnancy, or the female symptoms of a heart attack is a minority viewpoint now.

BrandineDelRoy · 08/10/2021 01:44

Is rather being naked in front of my brother than a random male.

BrandineDelRoy · 08/10/2021 01:54

@BrandineDelRoy

Is rather being naked in front of my brother than a random male.
I'm responding to a post. I'm not just proclaiming this.
NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 02:00

'I didn’t say that being a woman wasn’t an important part of who I am. What I said was that the things suggested by others as being the universal female experiences that natal woman share but trans women do not, were not important parts of who I am.'

That's not it at all. There is no universal experience. Obviously.

But the fact that there is no one universal experience. Does not mean that the female sex (previously known as women/ girls) do not as a group share an enormous amount that connects us.

Things like-

When born and 'it's a girl'. Observed to be a female baby. That instantly means many things. Different in different countries. And through history. But things that happen/ are expected etc because you are female.

For example-
Less years in school than boys

Having female specific restrictions/ dress codes/ socially heavily enforced codes of behaviour, restrictions on freedom etc

Expectations of taken on certain unpaid responsibilities

Representation in politics that is lower than is proportionate to % in population

Seen as adults much younger than boys and so taking on responsibilities, marrying (being married off) at young ages

Being the ones who know that they are of the sex that has periods, gets pregnant, gives birth. If contraception instead this is essentially their responsibility. Babies their responsibility.

The dangers they face because of certain types of attacks by men. The consequences differ massively. That there is little or no recourse in law. That it could mean being seen as unfaithful, unfit for marriage, being murdered etc.

I mean on and on. So many things.

That we experience because we are female and born into the world today. And that through history globally. It's always been the way for as long as we know. Sometimes better sometimes worse.

No there is no universal experience for women and girls.

It's the sum of so many different things. And always has been.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/10/2021 02:04

^And two thoughts on comments not directed at me:

  1. On the ‘don’t bring people with DSDs into this’ thing. I’ve said it before elsewhere, but to reiterate, that is not a universal sentiment among people with intersex variations. My colleague has Swyer syndrome and is fully supportive of her condition being used to illustrate that biological sex is not always binary, and in support of the inclusion and acceptance of trans people. She has also said that the vast majority of other people she knows with intersex variations feel similarly.^

Good for her.

There are rather a lot of people with CCSDs who have come forward to say that it is hurtful, others them out of their sex class, has led to an academic writing essays fetishising people with medical conditions (under the impression that they are hermaphrodites), people talking about children as having 'queer bodies', and led to organisations for supporting people with medical conditions losing out on state funding.

So what impact does it have on your colleague with Swyer if you don't use her to illustrate your beliefs? Gotta be something of comparable impact, right?

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 02:06

It's about many important shared commonalities.

They by no means will apply to all 3 billion women and girls in the world.

Plenty of women and girls do not feel that way. It's not part of their worldview.

But those things do not mean that it's nonsense. And that the 3 billion female people in the world cannot be considered as a group. Women and girls, still used even by those who espouse it should be people with vaginas etc.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 02:11

'Because, *@Helen8220 biology, homones, socialisation, experience and all those things that immutably separate men from women, women from men. Not the lady brain shite but the reality of sex base differences compounded by social mores and socialisation.

I just don’t think the socialisation and experience parts are sufficiently consistent and universal to support the kind of neat, absolute categorisation you’re arguing for.'

See previous post.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 08/10/2021 02:21

extract

Although I am always meaning to write something about my experience as a woman with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, I am also a terrible procrastinator and with work and kids to juggle, a few tweets are usually the limit of my attention span.

(continues)

The toxicity of this debate has resulted in even well-respected academics who write about intersex issues, endorsing the belief that it is acceptable to refer to people like me in the most dehumanising ways. This has even included calling the only charity in the UK working with children with different sex development, ‘trash’. [bold mine] This has been deeply upsetting for those of us who work with children and families who are facing these incredibly complex issues.

As a woman born with Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, Twitter is a difficult place. There are now frequent arguments about what it means to have an intersex body. On one side there are the debates about intersex women competing in sports and frequent comments such as “women’s sport is only for XX women” and even wanting to remove me from the sex classification I was given at birth. On the other side, I am referred to as a hermaphrodite or described as a third sex or neither male or female – and my body is used to validate the most horrific abuse of women or to prevent women from talking about their own biological experiences. I have witnessed my intersex body being used to validate rape and death threats being directed at women who want to discuss their sex based rights. This has even included using my history to validate the homophobic abuse of lesbians who define themselves as exclusively attracted to women. When I have asked for my biology not to be used in this way, I have been called ‘trash’, a freak and even a TERF, a term that has now become the easiest way to dehumanise a woman for her opinions.

I have repeatedly been called transphobic for asking that intersex people are not conflated with trans identities, as this silences our voices, causes public confusion about our needs and concerns and even leads to the groups that support us losing out on desperately needed funding.

(continues)

I believe that anyone who identifies as trans should be supported and free to live without stigma and discrimination – and I fully support any adult who chooses to transition, if this allows them to live in the way that is best for them. However, I also believe that I deserve my voice to be heard and my own story to be told.

The persistent online othering of intersex people

There is now a narrative that is continually repeated on social media, that states intersex people are neither male or female or a third, fourth or even fifth sex. This is frequently repeated by people with no experience of intersex issues and these messages often include inaccurate information about our lives and bodies and frequently include discussions of our genitals, even referring to us as having “both sets of genitals”. When trying to correct these misrepresentations, I am frequently dismissed, blocked or called transphobic. It frequently feels that I have become nothing more than an interesting anecdote someone has learned about in a gender studies lecture – and they have not considered that people like me really exist & should be offered the same respect as everyone else. We should not have our lives weaponised and used as part of a thesis, especially by people who have no interest in listening to our voices and will immediately block us on social media, if we do not agree with their analysis of our bodies.

I agree that we have complex biological variations that do not sit neatly into binary boxes – and this can be incredibly distressing and isolating for newly diagnosed children and families. People talk about intersex people being as common as red hair, but in reality, it is only a tiny number of children and families who are facing these really complex issues. In the UK, only around 150 children are diagnosed with a difference in their sex development each year, which means there is unlikely to be another parent in your NCT group experiencing the same issues – and there is unlikely to be another child in your school or sometimes even in your town. Parents frequently feel terrified and alone – and the othering language that is persistently used to describe their children, is likely to only increase their feelings of isolation. If children with different sex development are to grow up without stigma, secrecy and shame, we need to ensure that their parents are well supported and treated with compassion and sensitivity. By supporting parents, we are giving them the best chance to be positive advocates for their children. [bold mine]

There are now numerous guides for schools that talk about the best practice for supporting transgender young people. These all talk about the trauma of being misgendered or the pain that can be caused by not respecting pronouns. We are told that not affirming someone’s gender is an act of violence and can lead to young people attempting suicide. The latest advice from Stonewall also talks about “listening to the child or young person and following their lead and preferences”. The Trans Inclusion Toolkit from Allsorts states “Follow the lead of the child, young person and if appropriate their family”.

It is hard to understand why people promoting these guides on how to best support trans young people, do not share the same empathy for children & young people with different sex development. One recent comment stated that those of us arguing that it is wrong to force a third sex narrative onto all intersex people, have a “fear of being othered away from our female safety nets”. This seemed to dismiss any of the trauma & real loss that many intersex women have experienced. [bold mine] Born and raised as girls and then finding out as young teens that they could not have children & could have difficulty having sex due to lack of vaginal depth – as well as finding out about your chromosomes and internal testes. You do feel ripped away from everything you thought was true about yourself. It takes time to process this and grieve for these very real losses, before being able to put yourself back together again in a way that you can feel positive about living with a different body. This can take time and patience and it is essential that anyone working with children and families facing these issues, is able to be compassionate and sensitive to their needs. The current trend to other intersex people as a third sex or neither male or female, offers newly diagnosed children & families, none of the same empathy and understanding that is considered vitally important when supporting young people with gender dysphoria. Information sent to schools, often includes the Genderbread Person or Gender Unicorn, which has intersex listed as a third sex, alongside ‘other’. The Allsorts Toolkit references intersex, although the information they provide is misleading and even inaccurately implies that many intersex people transition as they have been misdiagnosed in infancy.

I want people with differences in their sex development to have the freedom to define themselves in the way that is best for them – & to talk about their own experiences in the way that feels most authentic. For some, this may be defining themselves as having a medical condition and believing that they shouldn’t feel stigmatised by this, any more than they should feel stigmatised for having diabetes or asthma. They may want to work with health professionals to try and improve care for children and young people. For others, especially people who have experienced traumatic & non-consensual surgery, any dealing with health professionals is difficult. I can also understand that an intersex identity can be an important way for some people to reclaim ownership of their lives and body – and I fully support any intersex person to talk about themselves in this way. It is also amazing to see young intersex activists proudly talking about their bodies and experiences and trying to form connections and support networks with other young people. This is so inspiring for young people growing up with different bodies and can show them that they don’t have to feel ashamed or alone. Our bodies do not need to be fixed and are usually healthy and fine to be left alone.

What I don’t support is trying to force the third sex narrative onto all of us born with different bodies – and I am now seeing even women with PCOS and men with mild hypospadias having their biological sex questioned & debated. It is important to recognise that we may need different narratives and perspectives at different times of our lives and that we are allowed the space to work this out for ourselves. Most important for me is that we speak out against the constant debates about the nature of ‘what we are’ and instead concentrate on ‘what we need’.

What do we need?

Intersex people are a diverse group and this is represented in our needs. However, most us have a sex easily identified at birth and learn to live with our different body & are happy to stay in the sex in which we grew up. Although a few intersex people may choose to identify in different ways, this is not a priority for most – and although sensitive and inclusive language is vital, pronouns and third sex markers are rarely a priority issue. There are rare occasions when it is extremely difficult to determine the sex of an infant or when a difference in sex characteristics can be associated with an underlying life threatening medical condition. These children and their families should not have their complex histories used or weaponised, without any consideration to the significant trauma they will possibly have experienced. [italics mine]

From my own perspective, our main priorities are as follows:

Good psychological support for children & their families. This is vital if parents are to be supported to be the best advocates for their children. They need support to ask questions about any intervention that is recommended & to know that surgery isn’t necessary unless there is an urgent clinical need. It is vital that they know it is OK to wait and to be offered the psychological support to help them discuss what is happening with friends and family. Any medical or surgical intervention offered should have robust evidence and consider the long-term risks and complications. As with all types of surgery, this should be considered only when there is clinical need. Do no harm should be prioritised for any intervention.Age appropriate information, stories & narratives should be available to support young people to describe their experiences in the way that is best for them. These may need to be culturally sensitive and presented without judgement.Peer support for young people, so that they understand it is OK to grow up with a different body and that it is OK to ask questions. They also need to be given honest and accurate information about their body.Allowing children & families to talk about their experiences in their own words and feeling that there are supportive places where their voices can be heard.Good medical care to support the very real medical complications that people with differences in their sex development can commonly experience. This can include hormone levels, HRT, bone density, lack of vaginal depth, infertility and even hearing problems.Support for young people as they go through puberty & start to explore the possibility of sex and relationships. This may include the use of dilators to increase vaginal depth & can require significant emotional support.We need more tolerance of different views amongst intersex people, so that we can feel comfortable to discuss our lives, helping to reduce stigma by not alienating the people that are in the most need of support.

(Continues)

What we don’t need

What we really don’t need is to be used, appropriated and even fetishised in debates about gender. This results in our own humanity being lost in endless discussions about ‘what we are’ or ‘how we are classified’, with very little concern about ‘how we are treated’. We should not be used as ‘gotchas’ in debates about gender identities and used to validate threats and abuse of women. We should not be forced to describe our experiences according to beliefs in gender identities, especially as not all of us experience this and feel we are as much a complex mix of masculine & feminine traits as any other human.

We should also not be used to validate the medicalisation of gender dysphoria in children. I believe that my body was surgically altered as a teenager, based on the ideological belief that my body must match my gender or gender identity, which correlates with the many stories I read today of children born in the wrong body and needing ever earlier intervention. My parents were even told that if I was given accurate information about my body, I would be suicidal – and therefore consented to all interventions suggested. I am not arrogant enough to claim that I have all the answers and it is likely that transition is in the best interests of some children and young people. From my understanding of what is currently happening in the UK, the Gender Identity Service (GIDS), still has many sensible voices that are calling for robust evidence and want to ensure careful assessment and psychological support. However, I am concerned about any groups that are trying to prevent open debate and are aiming to prioritise their ideological beliefs over the evidence. This has the potential for significant harm, very similar to the harm experienced by many intersex people.

Do these views, which I would not consider extreme, hateful, violent or intolerant – mean that I should be dismissed as transphobic & dehumanised as ‘trash’ or a TERF? Have people become so intolerant, that even asking to have our own voice can lead to this abuse? Has this debate become so toxic, that even discussing the very real ethical considerations involved with medical interventions in children, including sterilisation, can result in you being treated in this way? It has been especially distressing to see people who claim to speak and work with intersex people, endorsing this language – and treating some of us as if we are ‘the wrong sort of intersex people’.

Most importantly, we need to remember that there are children and families experiencing these very real and complex issues – and it is vital that their wellbeing and needs are not lost in this never ending and increasingly toxic debate.

From: differently-normal.com/2020/06/10/example-post-3

You can donate and do something positive for people with medical conditions here: dsdfamilies.org/donate

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 02:21

In the end it's nothing to do with our 'sense of self'. Nothing whatsoever.

It's about, as with all mammals, loads of other animals plants etc. There being two sexes. In order to procreate.

No I'm not saying I believe that is our conscious mission in lives or anything like that.

I am talking about things that are fundamental and have been since the first amoeba etc appeared. Continue species. Evolve to optimise survival chances. Mammals. Two sexes. That is why there are two sexes. In the first place.

When humans started communicating in more complex ways. Started speech. What would have been in the first concepts to be given words. Things like. Danger. Food. Water. Baby. Mother. Man. Woman.

Fundamentals. Sex, biology.

And then at some point. Came male dominance over women. And that's how it's been ever since.

It is nothing at all to do with a 'sense of self'.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 02:34

'I’d rather be naked in front of a random female or male stranger rather than my brother (who I love and trust) - as that would be incredibly uncomfortable for both of us!'

It's this sort of stuff. It comes across as flippant.

Ok.

  1. You're an 8yo girl. Feel the same way?
  2. You are in a country or place at a time when the risk of rape for girls and women is massive. DRC during the conflict. Parts of South Africa.... You get the drift.

I am also confused as I think you're trans? Apologies if not. But if you're a transwoman (?) then I thought a lot of the point of being able to use women's facilities- communal changing etc. Was because of the danger males represent to that group. An enormous risk. Yet you'd be happier to be naked in front of a male stranger than your trusted brother? I don't understand.

BrandineDelRoy · 08/10/2021 02:42

@NiceGerbil

'I’d rather be naked in front of a random female or male stranger rather than my brother (who I love and trust) - as that would be incredibly uncomfortable for both of us!'

It's this sort of stuff. It comes across as flippant.

Ok.

  1. You're an 8yo girl. Feel the same way?
  2. You are in a country or place at a time when the risk of rape for girls and women is massive. DRC during the conflict. Parts of South Africa.... You get the drift.

I am also confused as I think you're trans? Apologies if not. But if you're a transwoman (?) then I thought a lot of the point of being able to use women's facilities- communal changing etc. Was because of the danger males represent to that group. An enormous risk. Yet you'd be happier to be naked in front of a male stranger than your trusted brother? I don't understand.

I agree. And also don't understand.
BatmansBat · 08/10/2021 03:52

Not fearing to be raped or abused by strange males is an incredibly middle class experience, it is a lot of privilege in that. It is also privileged not having to worry about prisons, mental health wards and shelters.

It is just a shame that middle class women (as I think this to a large extent is) decides that they can consent to males in the spaces where the most vulnerable women in society are. It is actually distasteful.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 04:00

This MC women stuff really irritates me sorry.

Most in the UK consider themselves MC these days.

In what world do with women and girls who are MC not experience eg

Street harrassment
Sexual abuse
Go to gyms etc with communal changing
Have coercive boyfriends
Go to clubs bars pubs
Go on public transport (London)
Get flashed
Encounter men in positions of trust who are abusive
Go to drunken/ druggy parties where one or more men are really dodgy
Get stalked
Etc etc

If no mc women risk rape etc. Then their male peers- school friends, university friends, those they go to the same parties etc. Are never predatory?

No it's not that, it's an easy answer but that's not it.

Swipe left for the next trending thread