what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I think if you aren't very familiar with certain behaviour patterns, it's hard to understand what's going on when other people are more aware of probable dynamics and appear "unnecessarily" hostile.

Yes

Yes, there is a pattern of behaviour to butterfly's posts. And if one hasn't read them all, one might miss it.

But, butterfly has, just on this thread, made repeated attempts to redefine women, even asking for help from women, in order to secure access to their spaces for men.

Including, specifically, rape refuges.

Leveraging (in my opinion), women's socialised propensity to respond with sympathy to emotive back stories. Butterfly is, by their own admission, happy and fortunate, an example of the best results of trans surgery/treatment and living a successful transition, accepted by everyone they know. To the point where being trans is incidental.

But has still spent days posting bogus studies, using people with DSDs and outright dismissing the harm to women and especially totally ignoring confused young girls at gender clinics, in order to help other men violate women's boundaries.

But yes, butterfly is polite about it.

I don't pay much attention to Butterfly's posts, to be honest. They are always some version of "blah blah blah I'm a woman blah blah blah I'm a woman blah blah".

I've often thought that Butterfly's posts sound like they were written by a bot, rather than a person.

But has still spent days posting bogus studies, using people with DSDs and outright dismissing the harm to women and especially totally ignoring confused young girls at gender clinics, in order to help other men violate women's boundaries.

Rather alarming that all this is done while maintaining that the person doing this is a feminist.

I've found @ButterflyHatched's posts to be articulate and vulnerable, and her willingness to engage with honesty and introspection in a hostile environment quite moving.

Some of the responses I have found to be unnecessarily unkind, especially given her persistent politeness, and that's never a way to win an argument or persuade fence-sitters.

I do admire the persistence. But if you read back, you may notice that there has not ever, not once, been even a glimmer of empathy or care extended to any of the many women on here who may have shared any of a very long list of experience that would elicit plenty compassion in most readers.

The compassion and care for vulnerability only is expected to be extended to one person.

What do you call it if someone is repeatedly told, in very simple and clear terms: 'no', but keeps trying to convince, persuade, explain or insist that 'yes', they should be included? They can do this politely. It's still not taking no for an answer.

So - as politely and with plenty of compassion, because I do understand that it's not nice to be told 'no':

Women need single sex spaces. It's not a 'preference'. We need single sex prisons, hospital wards, rape/domestic violence refuges.

Anyone who wishes to argue that women should be forced to accept males in prisons, hospital wards, rape refuges, sports, even given the very good reasons why we can't have males in those spaces, even given the multiple instances of issues in these precise spaces, that were predicted by feminists over the past decade or so, that are now playing out (even if not reported in the media much at all) -

anyone who continues to insist that it's wrong for women to ask for single sex spaces

is not accepting women's 'no'.

And I'm not even sorry if it sounds 'impolite' to say no.

Women's consent matters.
Women's wants, wishes, desires, feelings matter.
Women's boundaries matter.

Even if it upsets someone to be told so.

You are going to tell a vulnerable elderly woman she is being 'unkind' for not wanting a male on her hospital ward? Or a rape victim that she should be more 'polite'? Or a Muslim woman who can't use a mixed sex space she should just get over her objections?

If you find it 'unkind' for women to assert those boundaries, then we have a good example right there of how and why we live in a culture that places women in a lower class than males.

Brava Arabella👏👏👏👏

@ArabellaScott

I've found @ButterflyHatched's posts to be articulate and vulnerable, and her willingness to engage with honesty and introspection in a hostile environment quite moving.

Some of the responses I have found to be unnecessarily unkind, especially given her persistent politeness, and that's never a way to win an argument or persuade fence-sitters.

I do admire the persistence. But if you read back, you may notice that there has not ever, not once, been even a glimmer of empathy or care extended to any of the many women on here who may have shared any of a very long list of experience that would elicit plenty compassion in most readers.

The compassion and care for vulnerability only is expected to be extended to one person.

What do you call it if someone is repeatedly told, in very simple and clear terms: 'no', but keeps trying to convince, persuade, explain or insist that 'yes', they should be included? They can do this politely. It's still not taking no for an answer.

So - as politely and with plenty of compassion, because I do understand that it's not nice to be told 'no':

Women need single sex spaces. It's not a 'preference'. We need single sex prisons, hospital wards, rape/domestic violence refuges.

Anyone who wishes to argue that women should be forced to accept males in prisons, hospital wards, rape refuges, sports, even given the very good reasons why we can't have males in those spaces, even given the multiple instances of issues in these precise spaces, that were predicted by feminists over the past decade or so, that are now playing out (even if not reported in the media much at all) -

anyone who continues to insist that it's wrong for women to ask for single sex spaces

is not accepting women's 'no'.

And I'm not even sorry if it sounds 'impolite' to say no.

Women's consent matters.
Women's wants, wishes, desires, feelings matter.
Women's boundaries matter.

Even if it upsets someone to be told so.

You are going to tell a vulnerable elderly woman she is being 'unkind' for not wanting a male on her hospital ward? Or a rape victim that she should be more 'polite'? Or a Muslim woman who can't use a mixed sex space she should just get over her objections?

If you find it 'unkind' for women to assert those boundaries, then we have a good example right there of how and why we live in a culture that places women in a lower class than males.

Exactly.

You are going to tell a vulnerable elderly woman she is being 'unkind' for not wanting a male on her hospital ward? Or a rape victim that she should be more 'polite'? Or a Muslim woman who can't use a mixed sex space she should just get over her objections?

And it gets worse. These women aren't incidental to the premise of access to males. They're not a secondary consideration. They are central to it. Their presence is required in order to make the space desirable.

Vulnerable, elderly, raped, imprisoned, homeless, naked - women aren't just 'collateral damage' in the pursuit of something that males want. They are the target. If you remove them and put them somewhere else, the target follows.

Even legitimate mixed spaces won't suffice, they aren't the target. Hampstead Heath ponds is a prime example.

The safe, women only space, occupied only by women who need it, is the one.

The safe, women only space, occupied only by women who need it, is the one.

And only if they are in it, of course.

And I'm not even sorry if it sounds 'impolite' to say no.

And that's what we're being asked to defend.

It really is ludicrous.

'No' isn't enough. No being said repeatedly isn't. Written 'No's'. No's on blogs, podcasts, letters to MPs. In surveys, questionnaire. On tv, radio, social media.

No being yelled and shouted from the rooftops. That's not enough.

'But there's no need to be rude about it'

🤣🤣🤣

@Datun

And I'm not even sorry if it sounds 'impolite' to say no.

And that's what we're being asked to defend.

It really is ludicrous.

'No' isn't enough. No being said repeatedly isn't. Written 'No's'. No's on blogs, podcasts, letters to MPs. In surveys, questionnaire. On tv, radio, social media.

No being yelled and shouted from the rooftops. That's not enough.

'But there's no need to be rude about it'

🤣🤣🤣

It's just another way Butterfly is "better" at womaning than us pesky hoarding dinosaurs. Butterfly can share, #bekind and put men's desires in front of women's needs. What a perfect woman she is.

Absolutely. Wi Spa was a good example of this. The spa has three areas - male, female, and a mixed sex space that the transwoman could have used. But chose, instead, the space with women in it.

Knowing, if other women were to be believed (remember 'we believe her?') that their presence had already caused upset in that space.

'we believe her' only extends so far as it comes up against 'be kind'. Then it seems to sort of evaporate.

I think the poster upthread who suggested that it would be more profitable for butterfly to take their issues to Stonewall had it right. Trying to gaslight women and hoping that some on here will change their opinion is not a useful strategy and will not prevent women from saying a clear no to pushing of boundaries.

I should probably have added to the above - on the basis that its Stonewall that has led the charge which has made life more difficult for trans people.

ANYONE who still thinks this is all just a nice hypothetical discussion aboutbeing nice to a few men who are a tad confised about their bodies etc look... open your eyes!

twitter.com/tlitb/status/1446030474212749320/photo/1

This is an academic woman who has had her office door pissed on, threats made on her life, her job. She was given security guards so she could teach FFS!

Why?

Initially she asked for a calm debate about the conflict between womens rights and trans rights. She asserts that human beings cannot change sex. She is a trustee of LGBA. And she is regularly targetted and threatened.

This is just the louder, younger version of what Butterfly has been saying across many threads recently.

Wake the fuck up!!

This is an individual in combat gear, stood on the Unversty of Sussexes stone entrance

"Our demand is simple: fire Kathleen Stock. Until then, you'll see us around"

I think maybe he could be a bit kinder to her.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

ANYONE who still thinks this is all just a nice hypothetical discussion aboutbeing nice to a few men who are a tad confised about their bodies etc look... open your eyes!

twitter.com/tlitb/status/1446030474212749320/photo/1

This is an academic woman who has had her office door pissed on, threats made on her life, her job. She was given security guards so she could teach FFS!

Why?

Initially she asked for a calm debate about the conflict between womens rights and trans rights. She asserts that human beings cannot change sex. She is a trustee of LGBA. And she is regularly targetted and threatened.

This is just the louder, younger version of what Butterfly has been saying across many threads recently.

Wake the fuck up!!

Oh dear lord. That written statement is positively unhinged.

I know! It's really scary, the aggression, the sheer hate coming through.

And all anonymoulsy - so could be anyone; could be noone at all!

And in the middle of that there are lecturers and students being scared, threatened, because they know what a woman is!

It's all very bizarre to me that a lot of trans women actually seem to really HATE women. Why on earth would you want to BE the thing which you seem to despise and resent so much?
In 30 or 40 years if the indoctrination of school children continues (ie there are hundreds of genders, a boy who says he is a girl is a girl, biology isn't set in stone, sex is on a spectrum etc) there will be fewer and fewer people left to take a stand against this slow erosion of female rights. That is what scares me, with two daughters. It should scare the fuck out of anyone.
And so many people just want to roll over doormat style, and be walked all over. So many are being complicit in their own extinction.
And it's brutal to watch.

And yesterday we had Julia Serrano on twitter telling people to just own up to not believing that mantra, TW AW.

So, a prominent activist attempting to shame women into being honest that despite repeating the mantra, they are not true believers.

And then we have Doc Stock being abused and harassed. It has been ongoing but it has come to a crescendo this week. For taking a moderate view.

And we have Butterfly questioning where it went wrong while over the past week. While effectively talking over the top of women who are up front saying no and stating our boundaries.

twitter.com/justjanedoexx/status/1445876096969297920?s=21

Eh? But Serrano doesn't believe it either.

@Datun

Eh? But Serrano doesn't believe it either.

not envy

Some of the quotes from prominent males who have transitioned are very disturbing. These are people who insist to people that they are women yet the hatred for females in their quotes is palpable.

'Living as a woman' seems to have a very specific meaning for Julia Serrano. Not one that would have occurred to me, or one that we've seen mentioned on this thread.