what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

yet the hatred for females in their quotes is palpable.

Yet despite "being women" they somehow can't grasp why we aren't falling over ourselves to open our safe spaces to people who hold these abhorrent views. I guess the lady brains are too distracted by kittens to join the dots.

I don't know how anyone can read the Butterpost where imagined female fear at being followed by a stranger is expounded upon in long-winded overly poetic prose and not see this for what it is.

Sincere and polite my fat backside.

I am confident that I will be able to keep my single sex spaces. It's going to get worse before it gets better - but a civilised society protects it's most vulnerable, and I think that a woman with a learning disability (who is far more likely to be abused than a woman without a learning disability) deserves safety, dignity and privacy.

There is simply no way that people like "Butterfly* can stand next to a woman with a learning disability and say "I am more vulnerable". It's laughable.

So, I think it will come right - but first of all:

the Lib Dems will collapse

Labour will nearly collapse

There will be many trans men dead or unwell from testosterone

there will be many more sexual assaults and voyeuristic crimes in our single sex spaces

an incarcerated woman will be murdered in her cell by a TW cellmate

the waiting lists for GICs will continue to rise because they can't get staff - the Webberly trial will ruin recruiting for gender clinics for decades

Once we have all of these things happening with regular monotony then Stonewall will collapse and then we will all see the naked elephant.

I do feel sorry for the trans people who are caught up in this. They have been sold a lie, once people started to believe that no one knew they were trans, and that they had ACTUALLY changed sex - well, that isn't true and it is going to be very difficult to accept for thousands of people.

It is going to be a terrible mess.

@WomaninBoots

I don't know how anyone can read the Butterpost where imagined female fear at being followed by a stranger is expounded upon in long-winded overly poetic prose and not see this for what it is.

Sincere and polite my fat backside.

Indeed. People are wary of being deleted. An indication that they are well aware of what they're reading.

@Datun

Some of the responses I have found to be unnecessarily unkind, especially given her persistent politeness, and that's never a way to win an argument or persuade fence-sitters.

Again, if you are willing to sacrifice vulnerable women, rape victims, female prison inmates, women in homeless shelters, to validate men, that's on you.

Personally I struggle not to feel hostile to people who regard that as fence sitting.

Hear, hear Datun.

Sitting on the fence whilst the above is happening, whilst a female academic is being bullied and harassed by a violent male demanding that she be sacked, well fence-sitter my opinion of you is lower than low and my desire to be polite to you has vanished.

I read one of the posts and thought that being afraid of male violence is by no means limited to women and girls. And that vulnerable males would feel the same fears expressed in quite similar fashion.

It does not mean that all vulnerable males should be allowed to access female single sex spaces as protection. No matter how eloquently expressed.

What happens when transwomen who ‘pass’ as thoroughly as Butterfly does, find themselves in a conversation about periods or the menopause? Do they nod along in agreement about the pain/cramps/night sweats or whatever? Or do they keep quiet or excuse themselves?

Because anything other than ‘I’m sorry, I don’t know what that’s like’, is like trickery or deceit, and I’m very uncomfortable with being lied to.

Yes, and there's the rub. If en-masse women decided to campaign for (and were miraculously granted) a third space, call it anything you want, it would not be long before it was invaded and taken over. Because access to women's spaces only means something if there are WOMEN in it.
It's NOTHING to do with male bodied people seeking safety and shelter from other men whom they regard as some kind of threat.
It's ALL about inserting themselves in women's spaces and facilities to be counted in with 'other women'.
Sorry, but I don't believe men are or can ever be, a subset of women.

Maybe you should look at recent post on AIBU!! They seem to know what makes a woman in the workplace!!

Given the choice between male people who scream these demands with rape and death threats, and the ones who do it nicely and politely, frankly I'm beginning to prefer the screaming, threatening violence ones. At least they're honest about it.

Excluding me from female spaces and access to society so that male people may have their preferred choice from all the spaces feels like the same male supremacism, oppression and domination to me and has the same impact whether it's done violently or sweetly with lots of big words to try and disguise it a bit.

Give some thought to the fact perhaps, that no one here knows which posters are trans or gay or male or female anything else, unless they have chosen to give that information. Only one person here has chosen to share that they are male. And then look at the one way expectation of nurture and care and appreciation for engaging politely and taking the time to talk being extended by some posters in that direction while displeased that posters they assume to be female are being insufficiently nice an kind too. The sex based difference is powerful. It's there in the expectation of who must give and who is entitled to receive. Who expects to be listened to and whose emotive stories should matter and whose don't. Who gets to say no and who doesn't. What is being signalled here by everyone involved makes very clear that no one at all is seeing this as a group of females talking together on equal terms, whatever we use language to kindly create the impression of. Go on to AIBU and look at how women talk to each other, what they expect of each other, what they let women get away with in conversation. It's very different.

In terms of female socialisation: yes. Women's socialisation has been vigorously leveraged in the achieving of removing their rights, overriding their consent, ignoring their voices, excluding their more vulnerable, commandeering their resources. However it needs to be considered that women paying attention, engaging and listening, have been vigorously socialised by the political lobby leading this, and by male born people participating in this, and the socialisation experience has been: you don't matter. Your 'no' is just my starting point to get what I want from you. Your privacy means nothing. Your safety is irrelevant. Your protected characteristics aren't protected and you shouldn't have a right to them. You will shut up and do as I say and provide service.

And like many women experiencing a relationship of this kind: they have been trained into new survival behaviours. Saying no, being blunt, speaking out, naming behaviours used to manipulate them and refusing to put others first on demand are just some of those behaviours. They may be jarring to watch; but this is the point that this lobby are going to have to realise: you can only scream at and kick mummy in the shins so many times before mummy is done with exploring your feelings and starts toughening up in a way you may not like.

In fact on reflection, thinking about this further: the posters talking straight from the hip are talking as they would to an equal. As they would to a woman. As women talk to each other all over this site when a woman is pushing boundaries and is disagreed with.

They are being criticised for doing this. They are in fact being criticised for not responding with appropriate respect and kindness for a superior kindly taking the time to engage with subordinates.

Yes! A woman's no = shots fired!

The shock and pushback goes from 0 - 100% in a millibillisecond.

Do not pause for reflection. Do not collect further data or opinions. Just shoot back, hard.

@Artichokeleaves

In fact on reflection, thinking about this further: the posters talking straight from the hip are talking as they would to an equal. As they would to a woman. As women talk to each other all over this site when a woman is pushing boundaries and is disagreed with.

They are being criticised for doing this. They are in fact being criticised for not responding with appropriate respect and kindness for a superior kindly taking the time to engage with subordinates.

Exactly, I talk to men or women the same and treat them as equals. I do not pander, I do not simper, I do not become more submissive or afford men any special treatment or extra respect or politeness because they are men - why would I?

I don't owe nor will I give Butterfly any special treatment I will speak to them the same as I would to anyone male or female advancing the same rhetoric and arguments they have - equal treatment.

Only one person here has chosen to share that they are male. And then look at the one way expectation of nurture and care and appreciation for engaging politely and taking the time to talk being extended by some posters in that direction while displeased that posters they assume to be female are being insufficiently nice an kind too. The sex based difference is powerful.

I agree. This whole debate has made this blindingly obvious to me.

I used not to think that "misogyny" was really a thing, or that "patriarchy" was a useful concept.

But watching this male-vs-female battle in the form of "trans rights" is, as Jane Clare Jones once said, "the biggest patriarchal unmasking you could imagine".

Speaking as a male, I do see both Butterfly and all the women here as equals, and I'm, sorry, Butterfly, they need their spaces more than you or I do.

Whatever you need, it cannot be at the expense of women. We will have to figure out how we can ensure that you are as comfortable as possible, without eliminating female-only spaces.

This is our problem to solve as males, not theirs.

naming behaviours used to manipulate them

Yup.

We have been reassured that if a woman ever said they felt uncomfortable in say a sport or a rape refuge, this person would leave.

If I thought my presence in a sporting event was unfair or unsafe - or, indeed, if I was told so - then I wouldn't take part. If I was told that someone at a crisis centre was somehow made uncomfortable by my presence then I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to recuse myself.

Meanwhile, on thread after thread, women are saying well yes, it does make us uncomfortable and the answer is no, and there's no sign of even the smallest agreement. It's the opposite.

Post after post of trying to get women to comply. using all the usual nonsense arguments of hormonal washes and DSDs to turn women's no into a yes.

Adding for good measure the poor, terrified teenager taken under the wing of older, benevolent women, to show us how we're all doing it wrong.

Millions of women, who use the same spaces as all of us, who invited me into those spaces as a terrified, awkward teenager, who told me really, honestly, definitely it was ok, that I was being ridiculous for being so fearful

With the casual rider making out that males are frightened and women are powerful - gaslighting 101.

And as an aside, it's patently obvious that there is a complete lack of care or knowledge about women. What raped woman is going to stand up to a man and complain? And look what happens when they do, even in theory? Bigots, reframe your trauma.

Likewise sport. Dropped. And bigots.

It's gaslighting to pretend that women are gaining agency in sport and refuges, not losing it.

Plus, the entitlement that leads butterfly to pick and choose the places they might deign to leave. Sports maybe, deffo not loos.

But watching this male-vs-female battle in the form of "trans rights" is, as Jane Clare Jones once said, "the biggest patriarchal unmasking you could imagine".

It really is.

Plus, the entitlement that leads butterfly to pick and choose the places they might deign to leave. Sports maybe, deffo not loos.

Not to mention: Unpick what is going on in 'if you tell me my presence makes you uncomfortable in your female space then I may make the decision to listen to you and permit you to have that space as you need'.

Women are viewed as just children in this, while the grown ups will listen, but always have the casting vote, and know best what everyone really needs.

@Artichokeleaves

Plus, the entitlement that leads butterfly to pick and choose the places they might deign to leave. Sports maybe, deffo not loos.

Not to mention: Unpick what is going on in 'if you tell me my presence makes you uncomfortable in your female space then I may make the decision to listen to you and permit you to have that space as you need'.

Women are viewed as just children in this, while the grown ups will listen, but always have the casting vote, and know best what everyone really needs.

Yes the decision is not ours. That emphatic no appears to be almost a universally novel experience.

If I was told that someone at a crisis centre was somehow made uncomfortable by my presence

'Somehow' works on me in the same way.

'Really? you're here trying to recover from male violence, but the presence of a male males you uncomfortable? I can't imagine why, but okaay...'

@OFAHmusical

What happens when transwomen who ‘pass’ as thoroughly as Butterfly does, find themselves in a conversation about periods or the menopause? Do they nod along in agreement about the pain/cramps/night sweats or whatever? Or do they keep quiet or excuse themselves?

Because anything other than ‘I’m sorry, I don’t know what that’s like’, is like trickery or deceit, and I’m very uncomfortable with being lied to.

Well, I had to leave a group that was set up for women to talk about periods, because a transwoman wanted to be part of it. And talk about how hard it had been to not experience this part of 'womanhood'.

What happens when transwomen who ‘pass’ as thoroughly as Butterfly does, find themselves in a conversation about periods or the menopause?

Thinking about it, I have left a women in business network because a transwoman joined and just took over, steamrollered the other members into their idea of the right shape. It went from a mutually supportive, let's think of an excuse to plug each others business and is anyone free to grab a coffee? to a regimented, only post twice a week, don't tout for business, business of the week voting, rule bound, competitive horror.

I left. I have since helped start another along the lines of the original group. The second person given an invitation was the same transwomen. I close the group for covid and will be opening it up again in a week or to. At least I now know which woman I network with has absolutely no idea, is so wrapped up in being nice, she can't see how much her own business was impacted. I won't be allowing members to freely invite others any more. None so blind, as usual!

A miscarriage, stillbirth and infertility support group similarly lost women due to TW wishing to use the group to discuss their grief and loss at not being able to have children. This was among families grieving multiple deaths.

Another FB group for women with a medical condition and chronic illness that can only affect biological females was also targeted and shut down by trans activists on the grounds of transphobia and after TW entered the group. Unwell females who had been supporting each other did not have the energy or capacity to fight back. They all lost the support. The founder was a MNetter.

@Artichokeleaves

Given the choice between male people who scream these demands with rape and death threats, and the ones who do it nicely and politely, frankly I'm beginning to prefer the screaming, threatening violence ones. At least they're honest about it.

Excluding me from female spaces and access to society so that male people may have their preferred choice from all the spaces feels like the same male supremacism, oppression and domination to me and has the same impact whether it's done violently or sweetly with lots of big words to try and disguise it a bit.

Give some thought to the fact perhaps, that no one here knows which posters are trans or gay or male or female anything else, unless they have chosen to give that information. Only one person here has chosen to share that they are male. And then look at the one way expectation of nurture and care and appreciation for engaging politely and taking the time to talk being extended by some posters in that direction while displeased that posters they assume to be female are being insufficiently nice an kind too. The sex based difference is powerful. It's there in the expectation of who must give and who is entitled to receive. Who expects to be listened to and whose emotive stories should matter and whose don't. Who gets to say no and who doesn't. What is being signalled here by everyone involved makes very clear that no one at all is seeing this as a group of females talking together on equal terms, whatever we use language to kindly create the impression of. Go on to AIBU and look at how women talk to each other, what they expect of each other, what they let women get away with in conversation. It's very different.

In terms of female socialisation: yes. Women's socialisation has been vigorously leveraged in the achieving of removing their rights, overriding their consent, ignoring their voices, excluding their more vulnerable, commandeering their resources. However it needs to be considered that women paying attention, engaging and listening, have been vigorously socialised by the political lobby leading this, and by male born people participating in this, and the socialisation experience has been: you don't matter. Your 'no' is just my starting point to get what I want from you. Your privacy means nothing. Your safety is irrelevant. Your protected characteristics aren't protected and you shouldn't have a right to them. You will shut up and do as I say and provide service.

And like many women experiencing a relationship of this kind: they have been trained into new survival behaviours. Saying no, being blunt, speaking out, naming behaviours used to manipulate them and refusing to put others first on demand are just some of those behaviours. They may be jarring to watch; but this is the point that this lobby are going to have to realise: you can only scream at and kick mummy in the shins so many times before mummy is done with exploring your feelings and starts toughening up in a way you may not like.

This is brilliant

Datum
I took the "somehow" to mean that Butterfly can't imagine a woman know the truth about Butterfly. Because Butterfly is reeeaaallllly good at womaning and no-one ever suspects. (Better than me, because at the height of an average man I am aware that there was the odd night on a station platform that I have given a woman the briefest of starts before they process my female face and size 5 feet). But you are probably right I doubt Butterfly has given a moment's thought to why there presence could possibly be unacceptable to a woman who has been the victim of male violence or the utter dishonesty of a male entering that space claiming they are a woman.
If a TW needs a rape crisis center or a DV shelter they should have the sensitivity to comprehend why a women only space isn't suitable for them.
If Butterfly said they need support so were setting up a shelter for TW or campaigning for third spaces or were railing against male violence and asking men to #bemorekind then they could count on my support but the louder and harder men shout to be in my Mum's hospital ward and call her a bigot if she say no the more entrenched I become. The more they try to define me not by my sex but by my body parts the louder I say no. And the more TRA's threaten and insult any woman that dares to say no the more my sympathy wains.

I took the "somehow" to mean that Butterfly can't imagine a woman know the truth about Butterfly.

Ah well, you might be right. Although it rather begs question as to why they would be asking butterfly to leave in the first place. But hey. There is often a fine line between wondering if you're being manipulated, or whether someone is just disingenuous.

For me, it was the overarching feeling that their entitlement meant their foot was already in the door and only then came the potential to address any issue.

As a previous poster says, it appears as though our rights, our spaces are conditional, always, on the permission of men.

Which is why the bald 'no' feels slightly dangerous, I believe. We are conditioned into not saying it by the threat of consequences.

“A miscarriage, stillbirth and infertility support group similarly lost women due to TW wishing to use the group to discuss their grief and loss at not being able to have children. This was among families grieving multiple deaths”

WTF?! Good god that’s awful.

That’s truly awful.