what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

Ah, Would that must be a different person then. The one who had that young man convicted was a special office in Wales who, according to google, has been unable to return fully to his duties.

So, we have an Officer Bunce now? Cressida Dick has a problem now - if she has rapists i the Met how can she possibly allow male officers into female changing areas?

Oh what tangled webs...

Erish yes I have round the same. And the charities and organisations who support people with autism couldn't quite get their voices heard in the press over the case.

How unexpected.

Yes. You are missing the lucky fact of your existence.

Hips don't lie though

And yes, to be very clear Helen I am really pissed of not so much with Butterfly but with the cult like movement that spouts this stuff; makes up a weight of poor science, mangled, misappropriated, downright lies, and touts it as a beacon of hope to individuals of both sexes.

This is an absolute fucking nightmare that many trans individuals live with. Their dysphoria being given a simile of something grounded in a newly discovered fact - that human beings are the sex they feel they are not the sex of their bodies. The mantra that feeling something makes you that something.

It is dishonest, It plays into the disordered thinking, the heart of dysphoria, and promises something it unequivocally cannot deliver.

The emotional blackmail, hyperbole used to back up those promises whilst simultaneously silencing debate is downright criminal, in my opinion. Preventing young people from accessing calm, unbiased, peronalised support for their mental and physical health is despicable. And that is what is happening whenever a school says "teachers should support a child with social transition [namechanges etc] without recourse to parent", or dispensing life changing drugs over the internet (like Weberley who herself, under oath , said she made it all up as she went along and didn't keep notes...)

An entire generation, 2 now, has been sold this shit, have had their dysphoria used, twisted, made into a media spectacle. And it sickens me. Should sicken everyone. When you look at some of the loudest voices all you see it vitriol (and I am thinking of people like Owen Jones here), you see that vitriol spread and infect our young people, who hate themselves, or hate others and are egged on by anonymous Svengali like voices (not hyperbole there, just thinking about how the term Incel has been taken, from a woman, and twisted into something that kills women).

So don't chastise me, or others, for being annoyed and saying no! We see something you have not seen - yet!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Yes. You are missing the lucky fact of your existence.

Hips don't lie though

Even if your breasts are small and humble?

You wouldn't confuse them with say, mountains.

To be fair, I might. Bane of my life those mountainous breasts, back aches like a bastard!

Mine are topographically proportionate but neither small or humble. What do you make of that, Shakira, eh?

It's more the directional aspects of said appendages. I mean, maybe if one lies down and sort of ... thinks of glacial erosion? Tectonic plate movement?

As @Helen8220 pointed out, I never claimed to know what causes gender dysphoria. I've linked the most recent study I'm aware of on the subject

I don't believe in magic, so I absolutely do believe that gender identity exists somewhere inside the brain, but evidence seems to indicate that much of the observed dimorphism appears after hormonal transition.

We seem to be slowly zeroing in on prenatal hormone fluctuations having an effect, possibly via the AR, but that particular theory has been around since the time I transitioned and we don't seem to be much closer to an answer.

I don't like the whole 'ladybrain' thing either as it stinks of the kind of bad pop science neurosexism that's used to reinforce harmful stereotypes; honestly anything along these lines makes me very wary in much the same way as discussions around finding a 'gay gene' have in the past.

I absolutely think it's important to consider the ethical ramifications of studies like this before we've squared the unpleasant circle of systemic, societal transphobia. Timing is hugely important; I don't want to be having conversations about screening in five years time.

Butterfly

What is a transwoman? How are transwomen different from women?

If you don't like 'ladybrain', what is your conception of what might be happening in the brain to produce "gender"?

Do YOU believe yourself to be female in some way or is it that you're a "woman" by some flowery definition of the word that avoids any reference to actual female biology?

Do you think all women who are not trans "live as women" by your definition?

I don't believe in magic, so I absolutely do believe that gender identity exists somewhere inside the brain

🤣

This is nonsense. If such a thing existed, there wouldn't be endless, endless reams of narrative by people saying they liked the opposite sex toys/clothes/hair/stereotypes.

Or the Tavistock clinicians worried that they are 'transing away the gay.'

Or lesbians stating, in detailed, incremental points exactly how they were sucked in.

Sexism accounts for AGP. Sexism accounts for the confusion of effeminate boys. And sexism accounts for girls wanting to opt out of womanhood.

It's little wonder that many men don't see it. It's sexism innit. Invisible to those perpetuating it.

And what's your view on Marci Bowers' latest interview with Abigail Shrier, Butterfly? That the treatment is 'sloppy' and 'reckless'? And that puberty blockers shouldn't be used?

the unpleasant circle of systemic, societal transphobia Hold it right there, Buster.

Define your terms.

Cos if you include us, women standing for women's rights then it will still be the same conversation in 50 years, 500 years, time.

And if you think that finding a gene, or number of genes, that present a predisposition to being gay, being trans, is a bad thing then I suspect you might be in for an unpleasant shock. I have quite recently read a very dense tome about the olfactory senses having an interesting role in 'being gay'. I shall try and dig it out...

If I may propose a question to posters on this thread, as I feel that the way it reveals the presence of subjective inner awareness of self is hugely relevant to this discussion:

-What 'causes' homosexuality?
-If you are homosexual, how did that make itself known to you?
-How would you describe your own awareness of subjective factors of sexual attraction to a straight person who has never experienced them?
-How would you have described it to clinicians intent on classifying it as a psychiatric disorder - which it still was within the living memory of some of the posters here?
-How would (did?) you respond to legislation banning it being discussed in schools?

-What 'causes' homosexuality?
Being attracted to people of the same sex.

-If you are homosexual, how did that make itself known to you?
Being attracted to people of the same sex.

-How would you describe your own awareness of subjective factors of sexual attraction to a straight person who has never experienced them?
I fancy that person who is the same sex as me.

-How would you have described it to clinicians intent on classifying it as a psychiatric disorder - which it still was within the living memory of some of the posters here?
I fancy people who are the same sex as me.

-How would (did?) you respond to legislation banning it being discussed in schools?
Disagreed with it strongly.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

the unpleasant circle of systemic, societal transphobia Hold it right there, Buster.

Define your terms.

Cos if you include us, women standing for women's rights then it will still be the same conversation in 50 years, 500 years, time.

And if you think that finding a gene, or number of genes, that present a predisposition to being gay, being trans, is a bad thing then I suspect you might be in for an unpleasant shock. I have quite recently read a very dense tome about the olfactory senses having an interesting role in 'being gay'. I shall try and dig it out...

I don't think it's much of a reach to state that the UK still suffers from institutionalised transphobia! We've made a great deal of ground in addressing it, though.

I think the discovery of genetic factors relating to expressions of sexuality and gender identity should be neutral or positive, but in a world that still believes these things themselves are negative qualities, any such discovery is extremely dangerous.

But homosexuality doesn't require medical treatment, nor any kind of treatment, Butterfly. So what kind of parallel are you drawing?

Homosexuality is not the same as 'gender dysphoria'.

Define transphobia please.

I absolutely do believe that gender identity exists somewhere inside the brain

So, still not provable, and not anywhere near enough evidence for young female transitioners who have high risks of significant health effects associated with puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. And please do not try to narrow the conversation to 'just puberty blockers' because the stats show 98%+ of children on puberty blockers go on to cross sex hormones. So, it is bad faith to try to limit this to 'puberty blockers'.

I asked Bowers about the rise of detransitioners, young women who have come to regret transitioning. Many said they were given a course of testosterone on their first visit to a clinic like Planned Parenthood. “When you have a female-assigned person and she’s feeling dysphoric, or somebody decides that she’s dysphoric and says your eating disorders are not really eating disorders, this is actually gender dysphoria, and then they see you for one visit, and then they recommend testosterone — red flag!” Bowers said. “Wake up here.”

Bowers is of course, Dr. Marci Bowers, a world-renowned vaginoplasty specialist who operated on reality-television star Jazz Jennings. (bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle)

I'd answer that but suspect the answer would enrage you. Mainly as I firmly believe that ALL human behaviour has its roots in genetic predispositions. Predispositions that nurture triggers, or negates.

So I'd say something in childhood triggered a predisposition.. could happen at any age, wouldnt describe it to clinicians as it isn't a defect, doesn't have a negative impact on anyone else, and would fight/lobby against anything that tried to ban it.

And yes, I'd say the same about being trans, I suspect many here would.

BUT would again state quite loudly and clearly that this does not mean human beings can change sex, that men should have access to female single sex spaces and that being trans is not a trump card to overrule anyone elses rights.

Being a transwoman is not being any part of womanhood

Being a transman is not being any part of manhood

Transwomen are men. More feminine than societal mores usually dictate, at the far end of the masculine / feminine polemic

Transmen are women, More masculine than societal mores usually dictate, at the far end of the feminine / masculne polemic

There should be room in society for all. But not if that room is made by removing the rights of anyone else.

Start from there and we could have a meaningful discussion.

I think true trans acceptance would be when males who live as women are fully accepted in male places acknowledging and embracing the wide variety of ways to be male.

How did you a person born male come to the conclusion that your discomfort with your body meant that you were a woman, a state of existence with which you have no experience?
As to homosexuals why would the even need to explain their sexuality, All that is necessary is'Hey mate , you know when you look at a fit girl and you get an erection, well that is what happens to me when I see a fit looking man." Oh right got it' Simple!

I don't think it's much of a reach to state that the UK still suffers from institutionalised transphobia! Don't side step it WHAT IS IT?

We've made a great deal of ground in addressing it, though. You mean all the aggression towrads women who stand up and say no? Or the Stonewall lobbying, misrepresenting of laws? Helen Weberley and her actions as admitted in court?

If you can't answer questions in as straighforward a fashion as many poster here have then you simply don't have a coherent stance at all!