what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

I don't think I've done any of those things Helen. Can we try not to generalise on here?

I mean actually, I could get very angry on Butterfly's behalf, Helen. Because I don't think the medical or scientific or academic communities have had Butterfly's best interests at heart.

Or anybody's, really. A society based on queer theory is not a kind, not a healthy, not a compassionate one. It's one with no solid ground, no practical applications, no common sense, no up or down. That is the whole point. It's not built around humans, only around ideas. It's dangerous.

So all those who identify as a specific gender (not male or female) have similar brains and we all need to get scanned to know which gender we are?

But the study Butterfly quoted in order to answer the question what causes dysphoria had nothing to do with cause. It was about effect not cause.
I could have better stab at what cause dysphoria than if you have dysphoria and people believe you/ play along with you then you are treat like the opposite sex. Because nothing in that addresses cause.

I think a lot of women are angry. I have nothing against Butterfly but I want Butterfly to stay out of single sex spaces.

I don’t know what I have in common with Butterfly, most of the things Butterfly listed do not apply to me. I know that one thing I have in common with most women is the looming menopause and how to manage that. I don’t have that in common with Butterfly.

Something I have in common with many women and a tiny amount of men is taking the main responsibility for children which was crushing during the pandemic. I never saw a transwoman come here for a chat about how to manage work, homeschooling and looking after the flat. Maybe they were around somewhere? That is something I would have in common with anyone and I would have chatted to anyone about it. But that is never what transwomen want to bond over. It is always some undefined “female experience” that I cannot relate to.

I wish Butterfly well (outside single sex spaces). But I wish people like butterfly would stop talking about how wonderful all this is in front of children and to children. Transitioning has completely different and incredibly more serious health impacts for a child. Some of the young detransitioners’ videos and testimonials make me cry. Leave the children alone until they are psychologically able to understand what they are doing.

So, this looks to me like we have two types of responses on this thread:

• those who agree with me - that "living as a woman" is indefinable, based on sexist stereotypes and insulting

• those who have taken the time to explain that "living as a woman" is personal, flexible, subjective and very important to individuals (I'm not being sarcastic, I do appreciate the comments - I don't agree with any of them, though)

The people who value "living as a woman" appear to all be male. Those who object to having "woman" defined as anything other than "adult human female" appear to all be female.

So, what I'd conclude is that, as per fucking usual, women are not being listened to by the policy makers.

I simply have nothing in common with people like Butterfly. I don't "feel" female - I don't understand what that means to people, though I can see it holds huge importance for the individual.

I know I'm female because my female body does stuff that I don't particularly like, but it is what it is and it does what it does.

My sex does not need paragraphs of word salad and (bad) studies to show itself. I could wordlessly point to my kids and my prolapse and my saggy old tits - any fool can see the interconnectedness of those three products of my body and that each of them evidence my sex. Male people cannot experience vaginal prolapse, and curiously, I haven't yet seen that joyful female experience being fetishised.

Those who accept "live as a woman" as evidence of gender are sexist.

So, male people who want to be female, I'm sorry. Knowing that you cannot actually change sex and believing that would make you happy must be a very hard burden to bear in your life. I honestly hope that by using feminine things, or style, or mannerisms you find peace.

However, I (and the majority of women) want my single sex spaces which means that you, despite your inner feelings, need to stay out of my work toilet because you are male.

So, how do we get the male feminine people to accept the compromise of a third toilet and then I get my female only toilet which I am entitled to in law?

So, what brain does the man/woman police officer with the two warrant cards have?

Arabella Hashtag me too.

I am raging that so many people have been sold a lie. Transition does not seem to bring peace and happiness, there is never an end point because humans cannot change sex. I will always spot a trans woman, and I am 99% confident that I'd spot Butterfly was male if Butterfly was in my single sex space. What passes are our comments - we don't say what's in our head, we note and we leave.

I mean actually, I could get very angry on Butterfly's behalf, Helen. Because I don't think the medical or scientific or academic communities have had Butterfly's best interests at heart.

I am angry too. There are people being harmed on both sides of this situation and a very small number of unspeakably smug, introspective, morally corrupt fools who are making a great deal of money in the centre of the whole thing.

@WouldBeGood

So, what brain does the man/woman police officer with the two warrant cards have?

Anything he/she pleases, it seems.

@WouldBeGood

So, what brain does the man/woman police officer with the two warrant cards have?

It may be split? And a different half becomes dominant every so often.

Yep, vivarium. Who really benefits from all of this?

I don't "feel" female - I don't understand what that means to people, though I can see it holds huge importance for the individual.

I know I'm female because my female body does stuff that I don't particularly like, but it is what it is and it does what it does.

This is where I am.

I don't fit in the woman box, never have. Doesn't mean I'm a man though. It just means the boxes are not fit for purpose.

Wouldbe Is that the officer who had a young man with autism and learning disabilities charged with a hate crime when he asked the police officer whether they were a man or a woman?

He was fucking convicted.

His protected characteristics did not protect him. His neurodiversity means he won't lie and he does not have the same social filter that neurotypical people have. His learning disability means he will never be able to learn how to mask the social filter.

And they fucking convicted him. It's inhumane, it really is. I see hate there, but it's not coming from that young man.

Arabella - well, there's 70 staff at Stonewall who need that money to pay their mortgage. Susie Green makes a bit of cash. The Lib Dems had a million or a bit more from pharmaceuticals...oh, gosh...I wonder how much money the industry of conversion makes.

Good question.

@Runningupthecurtains

But the study Butterfly quoted in order to answer the question what causes dysphoria had nothing to do with cause. It was about effect not cause. I could have better stab at what cause dysphoria than if you have dysphoria and people believe you/ play along with you then you are treat like the opposite sex. Because nothing in that addresses cause.

Quite. It was cut-and-paste of a study, and didn't answer the question at all. It never does.

I've asked loads of transwomen what they think causes their gender dysphoria and answers range from there's something in the water, I behave like a woman, I have a lady brain, I want to be a mean girl in Hollywood movies and it's the only way to feel vibrant.

Given we are told how distressing gender dysphoria is, you would think that finding out the reasons for it would be paramount. But that doesn't appear to be the case.

With all the transwomen posting on here, I've never seen a thread or even a comment asking for support into studies, lobbying for finance, crowdfunding for research. Not once.

In fact, it's often the opposite. People who want to do research into what makes our youth consider themselves trans, are targetted. James Caspian, Michael Biggs, etc.

Most people reading around the subject will know the causes of gender dysphoria in youth, and also those in adults.

And it's not lady brains.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria I’m not sure, just saw this reported today. This person goes to work in either guise, depending how they are feeling.

KimikosNightmare

Aye. Because sometimes it really is hard to be a woman. You'll often have bad times, end up doing things you just don't understand!

Arabella- well, there's 70 staff at Stonewall who need that money to pay their mortgage. Susie Green makes a bit of cash. The Lib Dems had a million or a bit more from pharmaceuticals...oh, gosh...I wonder how much money the industry of conversion makes

Even when it ends it never ends. Alit of people when their individual journey seems to be complete , it starts all over again through someone else. I struggle to see how a case can be called a success when they can't stop. That's an actual gap in the market right there. Helping people learn to stop. I mean its fully understandable that when you have been doing something fir so long that there's difficulty in learning to deal with not having to do it.

That's not something I've seen anyone pitch. It's all about starting the journey . Never about what to do when it's finished. Maybe that's why so many feel the need to be involved with everything all over again.

[quote Helen8220]@CuriousaboutSamphire
Well, here's the deal my dear. It REALLY doesn't work like that because women don't accept that. Your perception of female, femininity is not the same as that of a woman. Your experiences 'as a woman' are most certainly not the same as those 'of a woman', no matter whow much you might wish they are.

Why are you so sure you know what all other women feel or perceive? You don’t speak for me, nor many women I know.[/quote]
Because, @Helen8220 biology, homones, socialisation, experience and all those things that immutably separate men from women, women from men.

Not the lady brain shite but the reality of sex base differences compounded by social mores and socialisation.

I may not speak for you, all women, or many women, But no man can speak about those things inherently female with any undertsanding or true empathy at all.

Which was the point I was making. Which is why I said a woman not all women. Surprising what you find when you read the whole post!!

So what do I have in common - that actually matters in terms of who I am - with you or any other woman, that I don’t have in common with @ButterflyHatched ?

Desperate gaslighting.

I struggle to see how a case can be called a success when they can't stop. That's an actual gap in the market right there. Helping people learn to stop.
In any other circumstances if someone's "inner feelings", "sense of self", or whatever were at obvious conflict with actual measurable reality we wouldn't play along or encourage them that indulge that feeling. If people hear voices telling them to kill we don't hold their coat and hand them a knife, we try to find a way to make them stop.

Transwomen can no more understand what it's like to be a woman than I, an autistic person, can understand what it's like to be neurotypical. I can imitate NT behaviour and 'pass' under certain circumstances but that's it - I'll never be NT.

I may not speak for you, all women, or many women, But no man can speak about those things inherently female with any undertsanding or true empathy at all.

Indeed. The experience of males who consider themselves women are totally alien to most women, but a lot of them nod along politely. When not policed, it's often clear that they don't actually see them as women.

What you are doing, Helen, is starting with your quasi religious belief in the all powerful doctrine of gender identity ideology and trying to make it fit with gotcha arguments. Even though it's absurd.

And they fucking convicted him. It's inhumane, it really is. I see hate there, but it's not coming from that young man.

I've spoken to several TRAs and their supporters about that case, and despite the supposed support many of them have for autistic people, especially the trans ones, they can't find any sympathy for that young lad. He deserved to be prosecuted. To me, that says it's all posturing. Like their support for MeToo and the police being called to account for misogyny.