what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

Butterfly

What is a transwoman? How are transwomen different from women?

If you don't like 'ladybrain', what is your conception of what might be happening in the brain to produce "gender"?

Do YOU believe yourself to befemalein some way or is it that you're a "woman" by some flowery definition of the word that avoids any reference to actual female biology?

Do you think all women who are not trans "live as women" by your definition?

Define transphobia please.

I think the discovery of genetic factors relating to expressions of sexuality and gender identity should be neutral or positive, but in a world that still believes these things themselves are negative qualities, any such discovery is extremely dangerous What does that mean? Seriously, what are you trying to say?

You think that any scientific research should shrug its shoulders and say "I dunno" or "yes and isn't it wonderful?" That research should only be published if it is nice? If it agrees with TRAs?

Dangerous? How? Would it undermine you somehow?

What?

And again, sexuality and transness are not the same thing. As has been shown so often over the last decade or so, being trans is the antithesis of being gay, for some!

@jellyfrizz

I think true trans acceptance would be when males who live as women are fully accepted in male places acknowledging and embracing the wide variety of ways to be male.

Yep!

I'd be willing to take a step back from my Life of Brian influenced stance if that was to happen ("Piss of the lot of you")

I know 90s nostalgia is in vogue right now, but this has got me doing the actions and singing the song:

You wanna live like woman-people
Wanna do whatever woman-people do
Wanna sleep with woman-people

etc.

What does that mean? Seriously, what are you trying to say?

Indeed.

Butterfly, your posts are characterised by being opaque and skirting around the issue.

It's very common in people advocating for transgenderism. Because things have to be hinted at rather than spelled out. Because spelling them out gives them a clarity which is often not desired.

For instance, transphobia. Could you describe what you mean by that in terms of the actual behaviour?

There should be room in society for all. But not if that room is made by removing the rights of anyone else.

Yes.

@ArabellaScott

And what's your view on Marci Bowers' latest interview with Abigail Shrier, Butterfly? That the treatment is 'sloppy' and 'reckless'? And that puberty blockers shouldn't be used?

That isn't actually what Bowers said, though, is it?

She doesn't like blockers being used at Tanner 2 due to the lack of resulting penile/scrotal tissue for conventional GRS techniques in male-assigned patients, and a lack of pubertal sexual awakening, and is concerned about clinicians failing to properly investigate social factors and comorbidities. All very fair points.

Nowhere has she said she doesn't think blockers are a useful tool in general - she just doesn't think they should be administered at Tanner 2.

@WomaninBoots

Define transphobia please.

Sure!

Transphobia is a collection of ideas and phenomena that encompass a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions towards transgender people or transness in general. Transphobia can include fear, aversion, hatred, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to social gender expectations. It is often expressed alongside homophobic views and hence is often considered an aspect of homophobia.

Transphobia is a type of prejudice and discrimination, similar to racism and sexism, and transgender people of color are often subjected to all three forms of discrimination at once.

'When I asked Bowers if she still thought puberty blockers were a good idea, from a surgical perspective, she said: “This is typical of medicine. We zig and then we zag, and I think maybe we zigged a little too far to the left in some cases.” She added “I think there was naivete on the part of pediatric endocrinologists who were proponents of early [puberty] blockade thinking that just this magic can happen, that surgeons can do anything.”

I asked Bowers whether she believed WPATH had been welcoming to a wide variety of doctors’ viewpoints — including those concerned about risks, skeptical of puberty blockers, and maybe even critical of some of the surgical procedures?

“There are definitely people who are trying to keep out anyone who doesn’t absolutely buy the party line that everything should be affirming, and that there’s no room for dissent,” Bowers said. “I think that’s a mistake.”'
...

“When you enter a field like this where there’s not a lot of published data, not a lot of studies, the field is in its infancy, you see people sometimes selling protocols like puberty blockers in a dogmatic fashion, like, ‘This is just what we do,’” Bowers told me.

I beg your pardon, Butterfly, it was Erica Anderson who made the 'sloppy' comment:

'“It is my considered opinion that due to some of the — let’s see, how to say it? what word to choose? — due to some of the, I’ll call it just ‘sloppy,’ sloppy healthcare work, that we’re going to have more young adults who will regret having gone through this process. '

And the word 'reckless' was implied but not a direct quote, also from Anderson:

'Earlier this month, Anderson told me she submitted a co-authored op-ed to The New York Times warning that many transgender healthcare providers were treating kids recklessly.' - (Abigail Shrier)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not quoting Bowers as an authority. I think Marci Bowers should be facing court. I just think it's an illustration of just how uncertain, vague and unevidenced much of the care offered to gender-questioning children is at the moment.

• from this article, I meant to add the link.

bariweiss.substack.com/p/top-trans-doctors-blow-the-whistle

Male assigned.... sigh.

They are male. These children want the treatment because they are male children and don't want to go through male puberty because society's expectation of being male makes them uncomfortable. Doesn't make them female though.

And does show that the current treatment for dysphoric children is male centric. The treatment is actually very bad for female children for a variety of reasons.
Also bad for male children, but shall we say slightly less bad?

Again, that doesn't make one iota of sense - pass the biscuits please!

I mean your interesting interpretation doesn't make sense. We all know blockers have a real medical use. They were developed for a specific purpose, bugger all to do with blocking puberty for transness.

We all also know that there is no rational, researched medical pathway for doing so, both Weberley and the Tavi have said so, in court.

There is no rational explanation for using blockers for 'pausing puberty' in any child. That isn't why they were developed, isn't where the research is and, regardless of the re-writing of history (see BBC etc touting that puberty blockers ARE for slowing/pausing puberty in trans kids) isn't what they should be used for. Given that they were developed for pre-pubertal bodies of course any sane individual is going to assert that they shouldn't be used on kids at any stage of puberty! FFS!

Or will you now try to tell us the GnRH is responsible for something trans?

I don't think it's acceptable to say it's a question of 'zigging and zagging'.

Treatment needs to be based on evidence. Not the personal ideological zig-zag ramblings of someone who is happy to crack jokes about their young patients' genitals being like a pornstar's.

@ArabellaScott

But homosexuality doesn't require medical treatment, nor any kind of treatment, Butterfly. So what kind of parallel are you drawing?

Homosexuality is not the same as 'gender dysphoria'.

Homosexuality isn't the same thing as gender dysphoria, no.

It is precisely as real as gender identity, however, and both are well documented subjective internal realities experienced by humans.

No dear, again, no sense, more biscuits please!

You have just c+pd the defintion of a phobia and plonked trans in front of it.

What IS transphobia, examples.

Sure!

Nope.

Transphobia is a collection of ideas and phenomena that encompass a range of negative attitudes, feelings or actions towards transgender people or transness in general. Transphobia can include fear, aversion, hatred, violence, anger, or discomfort felt or expressed towards people who do not conform to social gender expectations. It is often expressed alongside homophobic views and hence is often considered an aspect of homophobia.

As I expected. This is judging or labelling the behaviour. It's not the behaviour.

Could you give an example? For instance is saying all transwomen are men in order to advocate for female only spaces, transphobic, in your opinion.

I'd also be interested in your definition of homophobia. Do you base sexual orientation on sex? Or gender identity?

It is precisely as real as gender identity, however, and both are well documented subjective internal realities experienced by humans.

Oh! Back to the great lie! That GC women deny the existence of trans individuals! Pshaw!

But at least you might stop using being gay as a smokescreen now!

Male assigned.... sigh. They are male.

Yes, this is pure euphemism.

The whole stuff about "conventional GRS techniques in male-assigned patients" is predicated on them actually being male.

If anyone female had been incorrectly "assigned male", you would not use this surgery on them.

I've just seen this and I think this is a great explanation...

"Be a lady they said. Your skirt is too short. Your shirt is too low. Your pants are too tight. Don’t show so much skin. Don’t show your thighs. Don’t show your breasts. Don’t show your midriff. Don’t show your cleavage. Don’t show your underwear. Don’t show your shoulders. Cover up. Leave something to the imagination. Dress modestly. Don’t be a temptress. Men can’t control themselves.

Men have needs. You look frumpy. Loosen up. Show some skin. Look sexy. Look hot. Don’t be so provocative. You’re asking for it. Wear black. Wear heels. You’re too dressed up. You’re too dressed down. Don’t wear those sweatpants; you look like you’ve let yourself go.

Be a lady they said. Don’t be too fat. Don’t be too thin. Don’t be too large. Don’t be too small. Eat up. Slim down. Stop eating so much. Don’t eat too fast. Order a salad. Don’t eat carbs. Skip dessert. You need to lose weight. Fit into that dress. Go on a diet. Watch what you eat. Eat celery. Chew gum. Drink lots of water. You have to fit into those jeans. God, you look like a skeleton. Why don’t you just eat? You look emaciated. You look sick. Eat a burger. Men like women with some meat on their bones. Be small. Be light. Be little. Be petite. Be feminine. Be a size zero. Be a double zero. Be nothing. Be less than nothing.

Be a lady they said. Remove your body hair. Shave your legs. Shave your armpits. Shave your bikini line. Wax your face. Wax your arms. Wax your eyebrows. Get rid of your mustache. Bleach this. Bleach that. Lighten your skin. Tan your skin. Eradicate your scars. Cover your stretch marks. Tighten your abs. Plump your lips. Botox your wrinkles. Lift your face. Tuck your tummy. Thin your thighs. Tone your calves. Perk up your boobs. Look natural. Be yourself. Be genuine. Be confident. You’re trying too hard. You look overdone. Men don’t like girls who try too hard.

Be a lady they said. Wear makeup. Prime your face. Conceal your blemishes. Contour your nose. Highlight your cheekbones. Line your lids. Fill in your brows. Lengthen your lashes. Color your lips. Powder, blush, bronze, highlight. Your hair is too short. Your hair is too long. Your ends are split. Highlight your hair. Your roots are showing. Dye your hair. Not blue, that looks unnatural. You’re going grey. You look so old. Look young. Look youthful. Look ageless. Don’t get old. Women don’t get old. Old is ugly. Men don’t like ugly.

Be a lady they said. Save yourself. Be pure. Be virginal. Don’t talk about sex. Don’t flirt. Don’t be a skank. Don’t be a whore. Don’t sleep around. Don’t lose your dignity. Don’t have sex with too many men. Don’t give yourself away. Men don’t like sluts. Don’t be a prude. Don’t be so up tight. Have a little fun. Smile more. Pleasure men. Be experienced. Be sexual. Be innocent. Be dirty. Be virginal. Be sexy. Be the cool girl. Don’t be like the other girls.

Be a lady they said. Don’t talk too loud. Don’t talk too much. Don’t take up space. Don’t sit like that. Don’t stand like that. Don’t be intimidating. Why are you so miserable? Don’t be a bitch. Don’t be so bossy. Don’t be assertive. Don’t overact. Don’t be so emotional. Don’t cry. Don’t yell. Don’t swear. Be passive. Be obedient. Endure the pain. Be pleasing. Don’t complain. Let him down easy. Boost his ego. Make him fall for you. Men want what they can’t have. Don’t give yourself away. Make him work for it. Men love the chase. Fold his clothes. Cook his dinner. Keep him happy. That’s a woman’s job. You’ll make a good wife some day. Take his last name. You hyphenated your name? Crazy feminist. Give him children. You don’t want children? You will some day. You’ll change your mind.

Be a lady they said. Don’t get raped. Protect yourself. Don’t drink too much. Don’t walk alone. Don’t go out too late. Don’t dress like that. Don’t show too much. Don’t get drunk. Don’t leave your drink. Have a buddy. Walk where it is well lit. Stay in the safe neighborhoods. Tell someone where you’re going. Bring pepper spray. Buy a rape whistle. Hold your keys like a weapon. Take a self-defense course. Check your trunk. Lock your doors. Don’t go out alone. Don’t make eye contact. Don’t bat your eyelashes. Don’t look easy. Don’t attract attention. Don’t work late. Don’t crack dirty jokes. Don’t smile at strangers. Don’t go out at night. Don’t trust anyone. Don’t say yes. Don’t say no.

Just “be a lady” they said."

Author- Camille Rainville who has a blog called Writings of a Furious Woman. ❤

writingsofafuriouswoman.wordpress.com/2017/12/09/be-a-lady-they-said/

Homosexuality isn't the same thing as gender dysphoria, no.

It is precisely as real as gender identity, however, and both are well documented subjective internal realities experienced by humans.

But ... nobody is treated for 'gender identity', are they?

All the treatments, the efforts to render someone the appearance of the opposite sex are ostensibly to treat dysphoria.

Look, everybody has a sexuality (even asexual people have a knowledge of whom they are attracted to (=nobody)). So it's not difficult to understand that some people are attracted to same sex people and some people to opposite sex. Homosexuality is a behaviour that can be observed in animals, can be traced back in history, etc.

But - 'gender identity' is not 'well documented'. Most of the people on this board don't have one, most people you ask on the street don't have a 'gender identity'.

It's a very new concept, and I would say given that so many people don't agree that it even exists, it's controversial. Far from settled.

The whole idea of 'gender identity' was invented in the 60s by a man I would be extremely cautious about giving credence to.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

(Content warning, child abuse, paedophilia)

If you are homophobic, you agree with homosexuals there is such a thing as homosexuality, same-sex attraction. The question is whether such behaviour is socially and/or morally acceptable.

....Soooo, if it's 'exactly the same,' cut and paste, transphobes know and recognise that TWAW/TMAM but think it wrong to recognise this, and so pretend to think transwomen are male and transmen are female, in the same way that homophobes think a gay man just hasn't met the right girl yet.

Now I have got that right?

@CuriousaboutSamphire

No dear, again, no sense, more biscuits please!

You have just c+pd the defintion of a phobia and plonked trans in front of it.

What IS transphobia, examples.

I've c+p'd the definition of transphobia from Wikipedia, if that's what you mean!

You're welcome to look up the term in other sources at your leisure.

[quote Whatisgoingdown]I've just seen this and I think this is a great explanation...

"Be a lady they said. Your skirt is too short. Your shirt is too low. Your pants are too tight. Don’t show so much skin. Don’t show your thighs. Don’t show your breasts. Don’t show your midriff. Don’t show your cleavage. Don’t show your underwear. Don’t show your shoulders. Cover up. Leave something to the imagination. Dress modestly. Don’t be a temptress. Men can’t control themselves.

Men have needs. You look frumpy. Loosen up. Show some skin. Look sexy. Look hot. Don’t be so provocative. You’re asking for it. Wear black. Wear heels. You’re too dressed up. You’re too dressed down. Don’t wear those sweatpants; you look like you’ve let yourself go.

Be a lady they said. Don’t be too fat. Don’t be too thin. Don’t be too large. Don’t be too small. Eat up. Slim down. Stop eating so much. Don’t eat too fast. Order a salad. Don’t eat carbs. Skip dessert. You need to lose weight. Fit into that dress. Go on a diet. Watch what you eat. Eat celery. Chew gum. Drink lots of water. You have to fit into those jeans. God, you look like a skeleton. Why don’t you just eat? You look emaciated. You look sick. Eat a burger. Men like women with some meat on their bones. Be small. Be light. Be little. Be petite. Be feminine. Be a size zero. Be a double zero. Be nothing. Be less than nothing.

Be a lady they said. Remove your body hair. Shave your legs. Shave your armpits. Shave your bikini line. Wax your face. Wax your arms. Wax your eyebrows. Get rid of your mustache. Bleach this. Bleach that. Lighten your skin. Tan your skin. Eradicate your scars. Cover your stretch marks. Tighten your abs. Plump your lips. Botox your wrinkles. Lift your face. Tuck your tummy. Thin your thighs. Tone your calves. Perk up your boobs. Look natural. Be yourself. Be genuine. Be confident. You’re trying too hard. You look overdone. Men don’t like girls who try too hard.

Be a lady they said. Wear makeup. Prime your face. Conceal your blemishes. Contour your nose. Highlight your cheekbones. Line your lids. Fill in your brows. Lengthen your lashes. Color your lips. Powder, blush, bronze, highlight. Your hair is too short. Your hair is too long. Your ends are split. Highlight your hair. Your roots are showing. Dye your hair. Not blue, that looks unnatural. You’re going grey. You look so old. Look young. Look youthful. Look ageless. Don’t get old. Women don’t get old. Old is ugly. Men don’t like ugly.

Be a lady they said. Save yourself. Be pure. Be virginal. Don’t talk about sex. Don’t flirt. Don’t be a skank. Don’t be a whore. Don’t sleep around. Don’t lose your dignity. Don’t have sex with too many men. Don’t give yourself away. Men don’t like sluts. Don’t be a prude. Don’t be so up tight. Have a little fun. Smile more. Pleasure men. Be experienced. Be sexual. Be innocent. Be dirty. Be virginal. Be sexy. Be the cool girl. Don’t be like the other girls.

Be a lady they said. Don’t talk too loud. Don’t talk too much. Don’t take up space. Don’t sit like that. Don’t stand like that. Don’t be intimidating. Why are you so miserable? Don’t be a bitch. Don’t be so bossy. Don’t be assertive. Don’t overact. Don’t be so emotional. Don’t cry. Don’t yell. Don’t swear. Be passive. Be obedient. Endure the pain. Be pleasing. Don’t complain. Let him down easy. Boost his ego. Make him fall for you. Men want what they can’t have. Don’t give yourself away. Make him work for it. Men love the chase. Fold his clothes. Cook his dinner. Keep him happy. That’s a woman’s job. You’ll make a good wife some day. Take his last name. You hyphenated your name? Crazy feminist. Give him children. You don’t want children? You will some day. You’ll change your mind.

Be a lady they said. Don’t get raped. Protect yourself. Don’t drink too much. Don’t walk alone. Don’t go out too late. Don’t dress like that. Don’t show too much. Don’t get drunk. Don’t leave your drink. Have a buddy. Walk where it is well lit. Stay in the safe neighborhoods. Tell someone where you’re going. Bring pepper spray. Buy a rape whistle. Hold your keys like a weapon. Take a self-defense course. Check your trunk. Lock your doors. Don’t go out alone. Don’t make eye contact. Don’t bat your eyelashes. Don’t look easy. Don’t attract attention. Don’t work late. Don’t crack dirty jokes. Don’t smile at strangers. Don’t go out at night. Don’t trust anyone. Don’t say yes. Don’t say no.

Just “be a lady” they said."

Author- Camille Rainville who has a blog called Writings of a Furious Woman. ❤

writingsofafuriouswoman.wordpress.com/2017/12/09/be-a-lady-they-said/[/quote]
Bloody hell. Yes. So true.

It reminds me of this. Which is even beginning to look a little dated, what with the instant hilarity of defining women as people with vaginas.

I've c+p'd the definition of transphobia from Wikipedia, if that's what you mean!

Indeed you did!

Do you think it's transphobic if women say all transwomen are men in order to advocate for sex segregation?