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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

what does it mean "live as a woman"?

999 replies

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 01/10/2021 13:23

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

OP posts:
NecessaryScene · 05/10/2021 06:30

So what do I have in common - that actually matters in terms of who I am - with you or any other woman, that I don’t have in common with @ButterflyHatched ?

You're female.

If you think that doesn't matter in terms of who you are, you're simply wrong.

(And I wonder why you're on a feminist forum).

I wonder though - what else would you say "wouldn't matter in terms of who you are"? How far does this go? Age? Race? Disability? Gender reassignment? Religion? Species? Nationality? Language? Height? Hair colour?

I'm curious where you're drawing the line here.

WarriorN · 05/10/2021 06:31

It's bad maths.

You can use statistics to look for something you want to prove.

WarriorN · 05/10/2021 06:36

Female does matter from the POV of the wider class of all females for whom sex specific bodily capabilities or sex specific diseases/ issues are a reality.

The laws are then put in place for all females. Not one individual.

One individual who doesn't fit the mould doesn't mean we dismantle the whole system. And that individual will still need sex specific care for certain diseases/ illnesses. Eg female heart attack

I had a NIPT test. I knew I was having a boy at 11 weeks gestation. I knew nothing else about him , but I did know he'd only father children not bare them.

jellyfrizz · 05/10/2021 07:26

This matter has been mainly investigated through the examination of specific populations, such as subjects with gender incongruence and intersex individuals: gender identity is one of the most sex-specific human trait, and many studies show how brain sexually dimorphic structures are often in line with gender identity rather than with sex assigned at birth.

“gender identity is one of the most sex-specific human trait”???

Quite a cisnormative assumption there!

NecessaryScene · 05/10/2021 07:31

Quite a cisnormative assumption there!

Indeed. A massive assumption too. Are you sure when the research into this was being done it was made totally clear to the respondents what "gender identity" was so they could give an informed answer?

And not just reply with their sex because it was what they assumed you meant?

Citations please!

I can imagine people being confused if I was asking them about their height identity and replying with their height instead. Doesn't prove that height identity exists and is one of the most height-specific human traits. Just means people didn't understand what the fuck I was talking about.

midgedude · 05/10/2021 08:14

If we are referring again to the flawed study that shows that post surgery trans brain show signs of trauma and that women are also more likely to suffer trauma ( why I wonder ) and using that to say it proves womanhood

I will roar

Such a study would also exclude from woman any woman who hadn't suffered trauma such as sexual abuse

Can't be a woman until you been raped is not a healthy definition

midgedude · 05/10/2021 08:16

It perhaps they are acknowledging that many trans people are actually sexually gay

There is a part of the brain that is shaped differently in heterosexual males

Runningupthecurtains · 05/10/2021 08:16

[quote Helen8220]@CharlieParley
But not exclusively female experiences. More than 99% of all women experience at least one period. For the small fraction who do not reach menarche (first period) on their own by age 16, medical investigations are necessary to rule out life-threatening conditions, and during the course of these investigations, most of them will find out they were born with a difference in sex development or suffer from hormonal imbalances. Many of them will then receive medication to bring on menarche.

And more than 99% of us experience menopause, with all that entails. We don't go through it at the same age, we don't all have all of the symptoms, but we all go through it.

And there's motherhood. Yes, not all women become mothers, some by choice, some because of infertility, but 80% of us do. That's a large majority of women sharing pregnancy and birth as an experience.

Our individual experiences of being female, how we deal with them, how we cope and react, those are different (but given the human psyche reliably reacts to the same stimuli in a number of predictable ways, there's a limit to the amount of difference there is).

Of course, there's more than just biology, there's also the fact that being female in a male-dominated world has real-life consequences. At a meeting at Edinburgh University, Julie Bindel said - minutes before she was attacked by a male protester on leaving the building - arguably the most common female experience on this planet is the fear of male violence. Although only one in three women are estimated to experience domestic violence and only four in ten are estimated to experience male sexual violence, even those of us who have not experienced violence nonetheless know survivors of male violence and often have witnessed male violence (The Girl Guide decadal surveys consistently show that before they are 16, around six in ten girls have either experienced or witnessed male sexual violence). This has an impact on all of us. So the experience of male violence and its impact specifically on female people is something that all women have in common, too.

We have many more experiences in common, of course.

What though do all women have in common with all transgender male people that we do not also have in common with all other male people?

I’ll give you periods - I have periods, most women have/will have/have had periods. And conversely, it’s true that no one born without a uterus has periods. The thing is, I don’t regard having periods as a significant part of who I am, or a defining life experience. In addition, my experience of having periods differs from that of many other women (in terms of heaviness, level of pain, emotional changes), so it’s not like we’re all even having the same experiences.

Motherhood and pregnancy - yes, a significant majority of women experience this, but a significant minority don’t. I’ve never been pregnant and don’t think it’s likely I ever will be. If I ever become a parent (through adoption, or my partner carrying a child), I see no reason to think my experience of it would be significantly different from that of a person born with male biology.

I don’t live in fear of male violence.

So what do I have in common - that actually matters in terms of who I am - with you or any other woman, that I don’t have in common with @ButterflyHatched ?[/quote]
A need for smear tests not prostate exams? The need for medical staff to check for potential pregnancy before administering an x-ray? The ability of said medical professionals to rule out certain illnesses when treating you because they only affect people with XY chromosomes?

midgedude · 05/10/2021 08:17

On the bright side at least ( I think ) it's not being suggested that trans people are born with female brains , just that if treated as females their brains can develop structures that other trained females do

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 05/10/2021 08:20

I can imagine people being confused if I was asking them about their height identity and replying with their height instead. Doesn't prove that height identity exists and is one of the most height-specific human traits. Just means people didn't understand what the fuck I was talking about.

Oh, I like the idea of height identity. My biological height is 4ft11. If I identified as a foot taller, could I demand stilts & lessons in using them from the NHS?

Runningupthecurtains · 05/10/2021 08:22

@midgedude

On the bright side at least ( I think ) it's not being suggested that trans people are born with female brains , just that if treated as females their brains can develop structures that other trained females do
But if femaleness is coz "lady brain" and we accept that after transitioning men can acquire a lady brain that still doesn't answer the question why some people need to transition because in this is definitely making an omelet after the eggs have been broken and still not explaining why the eggs broke in the first place.
WomaninBoots · 05/10/2021 08:44

I don't think citing the brains study even answers the question "what causes gender dysphoria?" It seems more to answer "what does treatment for gender dysphoria cause?" since surely the "trans" brains they studied will have been subjected to cross-sex hormones? It is not very clear from the extract presented I don't think.

You can't have a female brain in a male body though. Not possible. If a brain is in a male body, it is a male brain. If is has characteristics that are usually noted only in female brains then you have to change/expand your definition of what male brains can look like, not declare that this is a woman in the wrong body!

Try again.

What causes gender dysphoria?
Define transwoman? In what way does a transwoman differ from a woman?

WomaninBoots · 05/10/2021 08:45

Cross post runningupthecurtains. Well put.

Datun · 05/10/2021 08:47

@WarriorN

In most measures of brain and behavior, the differences between human males and females are much smaller than the difference in height. For example, the ten largest structural sex/gender differences in the brain as measured with magnetic resonance imaging (MRI, a standard brain imaging technique) range in size from Cohen’s d ~ 0.4 to ~ 1 (Joel et al. 2015). That’s an overlap of about 60 to 84 per cent. The situation is similar when it comes to human behavior. For example, a synthesis of meta-analyses of studies of sex/gender differences in cognition, communication, social and personality traits, and psychological well-being found that 78 per cent of the effect sizes were small or close to zero (Hyde 2005). Ten years on, Zell and colleagues looked at 106 meta-analyses, comprising data from over 20,000 individual studies and over twelve million participants. They reported an overall effect size of 0.21, with 85 per cent of the male-female differences being very small or small (Zell et al. 2015).

Using brains and brain scans and behaviour is no different to stating that all shorter than average females are actually female and vice versa.

So coming back to the original OP, it's basically clothes, name.

Well quite.

if a male brain exhibits something usually associated with a female brain, then it's not sex specific!

Its so daft.

WouldBeGood · 05/10/2021 08:48

A lot of what I hear about now is not people wanting to be a woman, but men with a kink.

NecessaryScene · 05/10/2021 08:50

You can't have a female brain in a male body though. Not possible. If a brain is in a male body, it is a male brain. If is has characteristics that are usually noted only in female brains then you have to change/expand your definition of what male brains can look like, not declare that this is a woman in the wrong body!

Quite. It's like saying that gay men have a "female sexuality". Um, no, if attraction to men can occur in men, then clearly it's a possible (if rare) male sexuality.

midgedude · 05/10/2021 08:55

Spot on curtains

Although the original question Of what does it mean to live as a woman now roughy translates as be mistreated enough that you develop trauma patterns normally associated with females

Which is a pain for those men with those patterns , such as perhaps returning soldiers, who are now told their brains are female.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2021 09:10

[quote Helen8220]@CuriousaboutSamphire
Well, here's the deal my dear. It REALLY doesn't work like that because women don't accept that. Your perception of female, femininity is not the same as that of a woman. Your experiences 'as a woman' are most certainly not the same as those 'of a woman', no matter whow much you might wish they are.

Why are you so sure you know what all other women feel or perceive? You don’t speak for me, nor many women I know.[/quote]
You mean - we don't share pink ladybrains?

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2021 09:29

One of the most sexually dimorphic human traits is gender identity [5], defined as the inner sense of self as a female, a male or as an alternative gender, different from the male and female ones

how can it be 'dimorphic' or one of the most 'dimorphic' traits if there are more than two? (female/male/alternative)

dimorphic = 'occurring in two distinct forms'

This is from the first paragraph of the intro of that study, Butterfly, and it just doesn't make sense.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2021 09:36

gender identity [5], defined as the inner sense of self as a female, a male or as an alternative gender, different from the male and female ones

inner sense? It's so bloody vague!

How is all of this built on an 'inner sense'?

How the fuck are we getting to this point based on this 'inner sense'? Legislation, medication, pontification, regulation, all based on this 'inner sense'. And apparently nothing else! We may as well base international trading standards on fucking jazz poetry. To be fair, the Brexit strategy did suggest similar methodology.

How do we recognise, measure, assess and confirm this 'inner sense' that is somehow elevated to the same weight as our testable, observable, confirmable and unalterable physical sex? With all the implications for safety, healthcare, social cohesion, etc, apparently based on an idea of an undefined 'inner sense' that most people DO NOT HAVE.

Helen8220 · 05/10/2021 09:37

Jesus Christ, you ask @ButterflyHatched over and over what she thinks causes gender dysphoria, you accuse her of avoiding the question, then when she gives an honest response (admitting that she doesn’t know for sure), by reference to a study, the limitations of which she admits, you deluge her with angry, sarcastic, bullying responses pretending that she claimed we should use brain scans to distinguish between men and women.

MonsignorMirth · 05/10/2021 09:38

I genuinely never understand the "inner sense" label.
If you start from the definition that being male means you are a person with a penis, what is an inner sense of having a penis? is it akin to a phantom limb? Do you hallucinate that you see one?

I'm not being flippant. I am trying to reconcile how you have a "sense" of body parts you've never had.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2021 09:40

To be clear, Helen, I am fucking angry, but not with Butterfly. I am angry at the destruction of so much over such nebulous bullshit.

It's not Butterfly's fault. There's a LOT of people who have been complicit creating this pseudoscience, and they have a bloody lot of explaining to do.

ArabellaScott · 05/10/2021 09:41

I have a lot of sympathy for Butterfly and others in that position.

What has been lost? What has been destroyed?

Did you notice Marci Bowers trying desperately to pretend Marci has not been involved in the 'sloppy, reckless' treatment of children, yesterday? Marci is trying to backpedal, but for so many, the damage has been done.

WomaninBoots · 05/10/2021 09:42

Butterfly has descended from the heavens to educate the evil ones with never before seen insights, HelenNumbers. They should be able to answer a couple of simple questions without too much obsfucation.