what does it mean "live as a woman"?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

I gather that in order for a male person who believes themselves to be feminine they have to "live as their acquired gender" for 2 years in order to get a GRC.

Is there a definition of how women live? Because I don't think I qualify.

Maleness is from the very start, at conception

I don't want to answer for CharlieParley, but for me it was when I started school. That's the time I learned that people with female bodies (like mine) were lesser. We generally weren't historical figures, politicians, sports stars, academics, scientists, etc. I'm sure this has changed somewhat since the 1980s, but I think this is about the age I began to realize that society considered female bodies to be lesser, decorative, and disposable.

@BrandineDelRoy

I don't want to answer for CharlieParley, but for me it was when I started school. That's the time I learned that people with female bodies (like mine) were lesser. We generally weren't historical figures, politicians, sports stars, academics, scientists, etc. I'm sure this has changed somewhat since the 1980s, but I think this is about the age I began to realize that society considered female bodies to be lesser, decorative, and disposable.

I was talking about maleness/femaleness becoming ingrained. Before I was 4 or so, I do t think I was aware I was of the "weaker" sex.

How can the male perspective from birth be anything but the foundation stone and therefore unchangeable? Simply added to with a transwoman’s perspective.

Not a female’s perspective at all. Because underlying everything is the knowledge that you are male who identifies as a woman, but is not female.

I'm trying to say, Butterfly, that I gradually grew aware of being considered inferior as female because of my body. I never (and have never) felt my brain, my thoughts, my interests were inferior. Are these my gender identity? I consider them components of my personality.

I've only ever felt that I was discriminated against and not valued because of my body. I get talked over because male voices are deeper and louder. I lost out in my career because I got pregnant and gave birth. I got cat called when I'm out running because of my body parts.

I don't understand what I have in common with you that I don't have in common with men.

Why would anyone need a gender identity?

I just am who and what I am.

With regard just changing you name on utility Bill's, bank accounts etc. I've been trying to get my middle name removed from my bank account as I don't use it and it's not even on my passport. I've been told point blank that it can not be removed, I've phoned them, written to them, every time I'm told 'no'. I get the feeling that if a male customer wrote to them and said they'd changed their gender and were now a woman they'd be bending over backwards to accommodate any name change wanted.

@WouldBeGood

Why would anyone need a gender identity?

I just am who and what I am.

Well, yes. To me it's like having a soul.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

None of those things are my life at work as a woman. But every single one of them is a Disney stereotype of woman!

I thought it sounded like a list of "how hard it is being a woman" designed for bias confirmation as to be fair to Butterfly much of what was her list does get referred to on here as if it were a universal experience.

think womanhood, as a subset of 'personhood', is a story told by our brains as part of our awareness of ourselves and how we exist in relation to the world around us.
I have no idea what you mean. As far as I can see, being female is solely down to biology. I only really feel "like a woman" when something biological reminds me.

@Datun

And ButterflyHatched although I have asked twice, I'm not really expecting a coherent answer. What do you think causes gender dysphoria? What is the cause of it?

Not what it feels like, not how it manifests itself, not how it's treated, what causes it?

I'm hesitant to try and state with any certainty, but this 2020 paper by the Careggi University Hospital in Italy makes a pretty comprehensive attempt to cover what has been discovered on the subject so far: www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/21/6/2123/htm

It states:

"The aforementioned studies, although very heterogeneous, provide data supporting the biological bases of the psychosexual development. In particular, post-mortem and in vivo neuroimaging studies strongly suggest the existence of a sexual dimorphic brain, i.e., slight differences in brain anatomy and functioning between the two sexes. It is less clear how such brain structures become the substrate of sex differences in cognition and behaviour. This matter has been mainly investigated through the examination of specific populations, such as subjects with gender incongruence and intersex individuals: gender identity is one of the most sex-specific human trait, and many studies show how brain sexually dimorphic structures are often in line with gender identity rather than with sex assigned at birth. Research on this field has reported a possible organizational-activational role of sex hormones: in fact, studies on people with intersexual conditions highlight the role of prenatal and pubertal sex hormones in the determination of gender identity and other sex-specific cognitive traits. This evidence is also supported by the data from studies on hormonal treatment of transgender persons: indeed, a little but promising group of longitudinal studies also demonstrated the brain plasticity in response to cross-sex hormonal treatment in adult life. Anyway, to provide reliable conclusions, more data are needed. In fact, it is important to note that the size of the brain sex differences is really small, and that life experiences could have a deep impact on brain development. Additionally, little is known about the specific biological activity of sex hormones on brain structures: in particular, further studies should examine the role of androgens and oestrogens brain receptors.

Besides sex hormones, genetic factors are supposed to be the main determinants of brain sexual differentiation: again, the study on allele variations in transsexual individuals allowed to identify several candidate genes, mostly involving sex hormones receptors or steroidogenic enzymes, as possible determinants of sexual differentiation. The results were contrasting, but they may suggest the hypothesis of a polygenic basis of gender identity; in any case, the complex interaction between these genetic factors is far from understood, and that should be the matter of further studies.

Conclusions:

Prenatal and pubertal sex hormones seem to permanently affect human behaviour and, in addition, heritability studies have demonstrated a role of genetic components. However, a convincing candidate gene has not been identified. Future studies (i.e., genome wide studies) are needed to better clarify the complex interaction between genes, anatomy and hormonal influences on psychosexual development."

Ahhh lady brains. So my understanding of the Arsenal offside trap DOES mean I'm a man. DH will be surprised.

Even if we accept that there are "boy" brains and "girl" brains surely these can only be shaped by a) biology and b) socialisation so how could someone born as a male and, presumably treated by society as one until they object and 'transition' grow a "girls" brain? They must already have the "wrong" brain when they start to transition so how does it happen? Your brain is your brain and if it is a female person it is by definition a ladies brain and vice versa. Unless someone is performing brain transplants.

Good lord, pink lady brains? That's your answer??

😁

@CuriousaboutSamphire
Well, here's the deal my dear. It REALLY doesn't work like that because women don't accept that. Your perception of female, femininity is not the same as that of a woman. Your experiences 'as a woman' are most certainly not the same as those 'of a woman', no matter whow much you might wish they are.

Why are you so sure you know what all other women feel or perceive? You don’t speak for me, nor many women I know.

@CharlieParley
But not exclusively female experiences. More than 99% of all women experience at least one period. For the small fraction who do not reach menarche (first period) on their own by age 16, medical investigations are necessary to rule out life-threatening conditions, and during the course of these investigations, most of them will find out they were born with a difference in sex development or suffer from hormonal imbalances. Many of them will then receive medication to bring on menarche.

And more than 99% of us experience menopause, with all that entails. We don't go through it at the same age, we don't all have all of the symptoms, but we all go through it.

And there's motherhood. Yes, not all women become mothers, some by choice, some because of infertility, but 80% of us do. That's a large majority of women sharing pregnancy and birth as an experience.

Our individual experiences of being female, how we deal with them, how we cope and react, those are different (but given the human psyche reliably reacts to the same stimuli in a number of predictable ways, there's a limit to the amount of difference there is).

Of course, there's more than just biology, there's also the fact that being female in a male-dominated world has real-life consequences. At a meeting at Edinburgh University, Julie Bindel said - minutes before she was attacked by a male protester on leaving the building - arguably the most common female experience on this planet is the fear of male violence. Although only one in three women are estimated to experience domestic violence and only four in ten are estimated to experience male sexual violence, even those of us who have not experienced violence nonetheless know survivors of male violence and often have witnessed male violence (The Girl Guide decadal surveys consistently show that before they are 16, around six in ten girls have either experienced or witnessed male sexual violence). This has an impact on all of us. So the experience of male violence and its impact specifically on female people is something that all women have in common, too.

We have many more experiences in common, of course.

What though do all women have in common with all transgender male people that we do not also have in common with all other male people?

I’ll give you periods - I have periods, most women have/will have/have had periods. And conversely, it’s true that no one born without a uterus has periods. The thing is, I don’t regard having periods as a significant part of who I am, or a defining life experience. In addition, my experience of having periods differs from that of many other women (in terms of heaviness, level of pain, emotional changes), so it’s not like we’re all even having the same experiences.

Motherhood and pregnancy - yes, a significant majority of women experience this, but a significant minority don’t. I’ve never been pregnant and don’t think it’s likely I ever will be. If I ever become a parent (through adoption, or my partner carrying a child), I see no reason to think my experience of it would be significantly different from that of a person born with male biology.

I don’t live in fear of male violence.

So what do I have in common - that actually matters in terms of who I am - with you or any other woman, that I don’t have in common with @ButterflyHatched ?

[quote Helen8220]@CharlieParley
But not exclusively female experiences. More than 99% of all women experience at least one period. For the small fraction who do not reach menarche (first period) on their own by age 16, medical investigations are necessary to rule out life-threatening conditions, and during the course of these investigations, most of them will find out they were born with a difference in sex development or suffer from hormonal imbalances. Many of them will then receive medication to bring on menarche.

And more than 99% of us experience menopause, with all that entails. We don't go through it at the same age, we don't all have all of the symptoms, but we all go through it.

And there's motherhood. Yes, not all women become mothers, some by choice, some because of infertility, but 80% of us do. That's a large majority of women sharing pregnancy and birth as an experience.

Our individual experiences of being female, how we deal with them, how we cope and react, those are different (but given the human psyche reliably reacts to the same stimuli in a number of predictable ways, there's a limit to the amount of difference there is).

Of course, there's more than just biology, there's also the fact that being female in a male-dominated world has real-life consequences. At a meeting at Edinburgh University, Julie Bindel said - minutes before she was attacked by a male protester on leaving the building - arguably the most common female experience on this planet is the fear of male violence. Although only one in three women are estimated to experience domestic violence and only four in ten are estimated to experience male sexual violence, even those of us who have not experienced violence nonetheless know survivors of male violence and often have witnessed male violence (The Girl Guide decadal surveys consistently show that before they are 16, around six in ten girls have either experienced or witnessed male sexual violence). This has an impact on all of us. So the experience of male violence and its impact specifically on female people is something that all women have in common, too.

We have many more experiences in common, of course.

What though do all women have in common with all transgender male people that we do not also have in common with all other male people?

I’ll give you periods - I have periods, most women have/will have/have had periods. And conversely, it’s true that no one born without a uterus has periods. The thing is, I don’t regard having periods as a significant part of who I am, or a defining life experience. In addition, my experience of having periods differs from that of many other women (in terms of heaviness, level of pain, emotional changes), so it’s not like we’re all even having the same experiences.

Motherhood and pregnancy - yes, a significant majority of women experience this, but a significant minority don’t. I’ve never been pregnant and don’t think it’s likely I ever will be. If I ever become a parent (through adoption, or my partner carrying a child), I see no reason to think my experience of it would be significantly different from that of a person born with male biology.

I don’t live in fear of male violence.

So what do I have in common - that actually matters in terms of who I am - with you or any other woman, that I don’t have in common with @ButterflyHatched ?[/quote]
What do you have in common with Burrty that you don't have in common with every human?

Sorry. Butterfly.

@BrandineDelRoy

Sorry. Butterfly.

I have so much in common with other females that I'd prefer to be naked in front of a random female stranger than I would my brother (who I love and trust).

Of course! We don't have anything in common with other women Helen8220, everyone is an individual, no such thing as class consciousness, that's one of those pesky feminist ideas right?
But we'll go with the debunked notion of pink lady brains and we'll assume Butterfly has one, and that's obviously a great way to formulate policy to ensure those pesky female bodied people aren't discriminated against yeah? Sounds like a flawless plan.

In theory there's nothing to stop us from identifying as transwomen because there's nothing we have in common that Butterfly doesn't share, of course. Nothing in your opinion anyway.
So that means there's no need for "woman" to mean anything except the circular "whoever feels like a woman is a woman". So my next question is how much is it going to cost the NHS to have us all brain scanned to determine what we are? If my brain turns out to be terribly manly what do I get? A little card or something, to show I'm officially a man? Or do I get to identify out of my brain scan results?
And what do we do with those people whose brain scans don't match with their identities? I guess they'd be trans, right?

Also I'm not really sure how poorer countries are going to implement the brain-scans-for-all policy. It could be some awful two-tier system whereby us in the West have our scan cards, and those people in developing countries just go on - gasp! physical sex! Of course I'm sure every country will respect women who identify as men and treat them accordingly, because anything else would be unfair. It's obviously a function of pink lady brains to agree to be married off at primary school age and to live as a domestic lackey with no rights.
Strangely there isn't a huge contingent of men signing up for this, I wonder why that is? Perhaps they need to have it explained to them.

Just so we are clear then.

A brain scan is all that is needed before any hormonal or surgical treatment to determine gender dysphoria?

And if the brain scan is a brain within the limits identified as being for observed sex of that patient, no further treatment will be given except psychotherapy?

Including then the specific shape of the brain? Because we know a female brain is slightly smaller and is different to fit the shape of the female skull shape.

It has been established that hormones will make some change to the brain. So does certain tasks lay particular pathways.

So does that also mean a female black cab driver is really a male because we know black cab drivers have a unique brain?

We also know female brains have more delicate nerve fibres. So, are we now able to say that unless a male has the same diameter and delicate structure as a female, they shall not be diagnosed as having gender dysphoria either?

Is that where we are going with gendered brain?

Skimming thread. Has this been linked?

It's extreme folly to use brains and make sexist assumptions from that.

Whole idea is just sexist.

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

In most measures of brain and behavior, the differences between human males and females are much smaller than the difference in height. For example, the ten largest structural sex/gender differences in the brain as measured with magnetic resonance imaging (MRI, a standard brain imaging technique) range in size from Cohen’s d ~ 0.4 to ~ 1 (Joel et al. 2015). That’s an overlap of about 60 to 84 per cent. The situation is similar when it comes to human behavior. For example, a synthesis of meta-analyses of studies of sex/gender differences in cognition, communication, social and personality traits, and psychological well-being found that 78 per cent of the effect sizes were small or close to zero (Hyde 2005). Ten years on, Zell and colleagues looked at 106 meta-analyses, comprising data from over 20,000 individual studies and over twelve million participants. They reported an overall effect size of 0.21, with 85 per cent of the male-female differences being very small or small (Zell et al. 2015).

Using brains and brain scans and behaviour is no different to stating that all shorter than average females are actually female and vice versa.

So coming back to the original OP, it's basically clothes, name.

*shorter than average males are actually female and vice versa.

That's should say