New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils

[Highwind]

Reported by the Guardian....

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-unveiled-by-uk-sports-councils

This is the impressive thing about this movement.

Groundwork was put in for years. This was thought out, strategic.

Get to talk to govt high ups behind closed doors.
Get policies and guidelines quietly updated.
The success of this is incredible. Unbelievable. Eg police changing from recording sex of those arrested etc. To gender on self ID. AND that a FOI to loads of forces. The ones that replied all said NO RECORD AT ALL of when this change was made or why.

I'm sure there's other stuff as well. Info on other threads about it.

It was always top down. Never ground up. And by the time it started to come to public notice, and some orgs individuals started making noise about it. Loads was already a done deal.

With no awareness let alone input from women or the general public.

I still can't believe the level of strategic planning. And that no one in the govt police anyone with a voice. Raised it as a ???. Or went to the press.

I mean it's a massive fundamental change of how it's been forever. To replace sex with a statement about how you feel about yourself.

So yes if ground up it would have slowly raised prominence. Politians public papers etc would have raised questions discussed debated before changing the status quo.

The fact it was a fucking done deal in massive things sets a precedent.

How the hell did they get essentially sex ignored in everything in favour of gender. And now we have to right to change it back.

It's a massive failure of the whole way democracy should work. The way this was done, lobby groups getting this massive change with huge impact and changing policies in prison etc with zero public awareness. Shows that our systems essentially don't work. And that's huge.

At every level women/girls will leave sport in their droves if a) they are beaten week in week out by someone who has the huge advantage of a male body b) if they are getting hurt/injured by competing against bodies that have been through male pubity or they fear that they will be c) they encounter a penis in the showers/changing rooms, or fear that they will d) they work hard, training hard, make sacrifices and achieve amazing results but see the awards and accolades go to TW (New Zealand sports women of the year going not a female gold medal winner but to a man who crashed and burned at the Olympics. It might be funny if it wasn't so bloody sad. A crap bloke is regarded as a better woman than a high achieving woman e) if men become the voice of women in sports by walking into roles as women reps/officers or the voices for inclusion and diversity.

Men should not compete in women's sport at any level. Yes there is mixed training in some sports, yes there are male coaches of female teams/competitors but they are there as men not as women. Men don't belong in any space or role that is for women.

I still can't believe the level of strategic planning. And that no one in the govt police anyone with a voice. Raised it as a ???.

I think you overestimate the level of co-ordination and underestimate the role of stupidity.

Like the glass delusion, electro shock therapy, vaccines causing autism, evangelical millenialism and Naziism it's a totally stupid idea that is really attractive to some people. These things gain a life of their own and attract all sorts of grifters, nutjobs and people who want to seem important.

I think for a long time people didn't object because those with the brains to see it as vaccuous probably didn't believe anyone could literally mean that TWAW. Not putting rapists in women's prisions and ending womens sports- surely no-one would actually think that's a good idea? Even now I think a lot of people still convince themselves we've misunderstood- hence why you get the 'nobody is saying...' lot.

How many men and boys want loads of mixed sport anyway?

They also prefer to compete train with those with the same physiology- male advantage.

If a cub has 8 girls and 2 boys and the other boy is not v good at it at all Then he'll just walk everything. He loses the opportunity to enjoy real competition, the feeling of winning, the desire to keep working hard to keep winning, the knowledge that others could beat him etc. The excitement, the benefits of training with those more evenly matched.

I can't imagine most will be keen.

And that's even without a stack of other stuff.
Losing to a girl
The whole male team and bonding thing which obv has issues. But also seems to be very important to many. It's said men are socialised not to show emotion. Sport for men is a place it is almost obligatory. Joy, upset, frustration, comforting each other, hugging, slapping on the bum (?!).
Why should they lose that?

Even individual sport there is hugging tears commiseration joy etc.

Wouldn't this be a step back for male mental health?

Every time SW says something, I can't believe they've crossed the line and gone there this time. And they've managed it again.

They actually cannot care what the reality is on this issue. At all. Surely they cannot be that blinded?

Anyway - about creating some mixed sports - sure, that's great, and there are places where that would be very appropriate. But the fact is that it's not really "trans-inclusive" sports, it's mixed men's and women's.

@Runningupthecurtains

At every level women/girls will leave sport in their droves if a) they are beaten week in week out by someone who has the huge advantage of a male body b) if they are getting hurt/injured by competing against bodies that have been through male pubity or they fear that they will be c) they encounter a penis in the showers/changing rooms, or fear that they will d) they work hard, training hard, make sacrifices and achieve amazing results but see the awards and accolades go to TW (New Zealand sports women of the year going not a female gold medal winner but to a man who crashed and burned at the Olympics. It might be funny if it wasn't so bloody sad. A crap bloke is regarded as a better woman than a high achieving woman e) if men become the voice of women in sports by walking into roles as women reps/officers or the voices for inclusion and diversity. Men should not compete in women's sport at any level. Yes there is mixed training in some sports, yes there are male coaches of female teams/competitors but they are there as men not as women. Men don't belong in any space or role that is for women.

I completely agree.

This guidance is now forcing UK sport bodies to choose either fairness and safety, or to be honest that they're discriminating against women. This applies equally at grassroots and elite levels. The Muslim women who left my local British Cycling 'women-only' cycling activity because they knew it wasn't actually single sex, were being discriminated against just as much as an elite female athlete losing out to a transwoman for a place on the Olympic squad. It doesn't matter if women are cycling round the park and learning basic skills or if they are at the Olympics, they should not be ousted from their own sports category by males, when males already have their own category.

I haven't read all the documents associated with this guidance yet, but I was very disturbed by the reports of people being intimidated by their own sports bodies and employers into not being able to speak about this. I think we need to be much clearer that silencing, cancelling, threatening and intimidating people who wish to express an opinion is appalling and those people and organisations who have done this need to be held to account. It's clear that it's not just those people issuing veiled and not so veiled threats online, it seems to be institutionalised silencing of people who want to talk about scientific evidence and women's rights.

think we need to be much clearer that silencing, cancelling, threatening and intimidating people who wish to express an opinion is appalling

And yet some of the most vocal TRAs in sport are doing this still, slandering FPFW, Emma Hilton (but unsurprisingly not her male colleague) and organising a response to this report.
Shame on them.

Yes I've seen some of the smears on twitter, and from some posters on here on other threads who just turn up to insult female scientists who are doing actual research in this area. People who behave like this, throwing insults and not engaging with the science, clearly have nothing of value to add.

If, however, there are people who want to produce an evidence-based response with clear and reasoned arguments then that's great. Unfortunately all the stuff I've seen so far manages to do is argue that trans people doing sport and exercise is a good thing, which I agree with, but without any good reason for them to be in the category for the biological sex they are not.

Like the glass delusion, electro shock therapy, vaccines causing autism

Just a mention that if this refers to ECT it’s undeserved. I had it for PND that wouldn’t shift and it worked like magic (3 sessions). I was very reluctant to have it because of the bad press - of course I’d read One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest. But I was so glad I did. Yes it has been wrongly applied but that shouldn’t be used to dismiss its therapeutic value.
Of course you may be referring to something else, in which case, apologies.

so tennis leagues - maybe the firsts have to obey "competitive" guidance but 2nd team and below can be open.

But the 1sts will all be men or transwomen. Women won't or almost never will make the firsts.

Oh and this was the PND that was part of a pattern of hormone related illness that prevented me carrying on with a sport I loved, because it completely destroyed my sense of balance and timing for a week every month. I couldn’t risk competing. Women are sometimes excluded from sports they could excel in by their own biology. That’s often forgotten.

but without any good reason for them to be in the category for the biological sex they are not.

Looking at the last Olympics it seems likely that increasing numbers of biological females who don’t identify as women will compete in the women’s category, which should theoretically undermine the idea that this is somehow demeaning.

I think kickboxing might be seeing this arrangement, which includes transwomen against women, as more lucrative - women will be risking getting more seriously injured, a woman who can beat a transwoman might be a crowd puller.

I hope it's not this reason but why else?

@Spiindoctor

I think kickboxing might be seeing this arrangement, which includes transwomen against women, as more lucrative - women will be risking getting more seriously injured, a woman who can beat a transwoman might be a crowd puller.

I hope it's not this reason but why else?

There are plenty of people who would pay to see a man 'legitimately' beat up a woman.

@McDuffy

When I run parkrun, I want to be the fastest female/woman in my age category. I don't want it to be mixed-sex, as it won't be the truth. That's why we split it in the first place!

My DH ran parkrun at the weekend for the first time in two years and came first, that simply isn't a target for 99%+ of female runners. He even walked three times! Pesky man with pesky longer legs and pesky male physiology that's just all round faster/stronger.

Not read past this quote but wanted to say 'hear hear', I am normally 3rd or 4th for my age and sex in parkrun. A few weeks ago, I came 101st out of about 450 runners. Only ten of those were female, the rest were male. When I run with my DC I'm a lot slower so looking at my stats for those runs I know parkrun participation at that course is about 2/3 male 1/3 female.

@Runningupthecurtains
(f) if their places in teams are taken up by trans women.

This is a possible outcome in my sport. Clubs are currently powerless to act against the fully woke national governing body. I suspect they will remain fully woke as safety is not an issue.

[quote MiddlesexGirl]@Runningupthecurtains
(f) if their places in teams are taken up by trans women.

This is a possible outcome in my sport. Clubs are currently powerless to act against the fully woke national governing body. I suspect they will remain fully woke as safety is not an issue.[/quote]
@MiddlesexGirl I'm sure people could the rest of the alphabet. It's just so frustrating to be told it doesn't matter or it won't impact women and girls it does matter and it does impact females even at the most casual non competitive level having men invade women's spaces and take their places isn't something to gloss over because it's only a few men or it's not serious competition or some female bodies are bigger, stronger than others anyway.

In my sport the transwoman is not as strong as all of the women but is stronger than some. That still doesn't make it fair that they take the place of a less strong woman.
(By strong I don't mean physical strength per se but ability to win at the sport).

borntobequiet

Agree. I think people think of one flew over the cuckoo's nest etc.

My mum worked in an ect clinic for a long time.

I asked her about it because I mean I only knew the usual idea- no anaesthetic, force etc.

She said. That it is used for those vv depressed and nothing else helps.
Obv it's general anaesthetic.
That they don't really know why it works (this was years ago maybe they know more now). But it did work. Her explanation was. It seems to sort of jangle the brain up somehow and they perk right up.

She also said that generally it was pretty obvious that there was a problem causing the depression. Her example was an older woman with a really horrible husband. That was not good. Loads of depression has a cause, in the past or current. To dig into that is a lot of time and resource and money. That's another issue though.

Born, I'm so sorry you were so ill and I'm happy that you got a treatment (a scary sounding one) that helped you :)

@Spiindoctor

I think kickboxing might be seeing this arrangement, which includes transwomen against women, as more lucrative - women will be risking getting more seriously injured, a woman who can beat a transwoman might be a crowd puller.

I hope it's not this reason but why else?

Earlier in thread. Or another thread. Seems there's a member of staff in head office who is almost certainly pushing this.

That they said immediately fuck no we will carry on self ID. Well it's ludicrous.

No way will parents of girls send their kid off to local kickboxing club past a certain age. Well most of them.

Because the general public know it's ludicrous and they don't want their DD to be kicked in by a boy. You know, because they like their DDs. And know what everyone knows which is that boys over a certain age/ development point. Are bigger and stronger etc than girls. And so. No way.

What this statement from the orgs for each UK country DOES mean.

Is that women can set up their own clubs. And that is fine. Female only no problem.

Yes it's shit to start again but at least it's an option.

www.heraldscotland.com/sport/19621554.sporting-advantage-tips-scales-complex-trans-athletes-debate-writes-susan-egelstaff/