New guidelines for transgender participation unveiled by UK sports councils

[Highwind]

Reported by the Guardian....

www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-unveiled-by-uk-sports-councils

Not here either. Other Internet places.

British kickboxing must have deleted comments on their Fb post.

Ross Tucker does a good breakdown
podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/bonus-episode-it-is-time-to-choose-how-a-new/id1461719225?i=1000537218496

I would not get involved in histrionic debates tbh. Fair play for women do a good job of being measured.

I read a couple of twitter accounts last night saying all the questions were transphobic because TWAW and therefore the report is completely unacceptable on that basis. It is not really worth engaging with people who are taking that perspective. IMHO

I would not get involved in histrionic debates tbh. Fair play for women do a good job of being measured.

Yes, there is a time when it's wise to assess how many bystanders there are likely to be v. wasting your time playing chess with a pigeon.

Lunatics. Delusional. Nothing else to be said about TRAs.

Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but for those of us with Dc involved in sport, is it worth writing to the governing bodies to ask for their take on this?

@Yepnothatfeeling

Sorry haven't read the whole thread, but for those of us with Dc involved in sport, is it worth writing to the governing bodies to ask for their take on this?

Yes please, it gives us ammunition

[quote McDuffy]Ross Tucker does a good breakdown
podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/bonus-episode-it-is-time-to-choose-how-a-new/id1461719225?i=1000537218496[/quote]
Just listened to this. As usual it’s an excellent run down of the science with some commentary at the end. Ross is quite damning of the words from Stonewall’s Director of Communication, who is coincidentally also on British Cycling’s Diversity and Inclusion committee.

[quote McDuffy]Ross Tucker does a good breakdown
podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/bonus-episode-it-is-time-to-choose-how-a-new/id1461719225?i=1000537218496[/quote]
This is good. One section addressed to this audience:

And what I want to end this section of this video... is to say now to women, that this report and the World Rugby position... I don't want to use the word "permit" you to speak, because that sounds patronising and paternalistic, and it's not that...

But, before, whatever your fears were, just know that now there are so many people who support you. So don't hold back. Don't be afraid any more. This document effectively opens up a new line of conversation where you should no longer be afraid to express a view that is actually scientifically valid. And I hope that that is the most significant contribution that this document makes.

There are many, many of us here who take part in sport or our DCs do. Everyone one of us needs to write to their NGB now and ask what they’re going to do now.

It was a good podcast. He is clear that you can prioritise inclusion OR fairness/ safety NOT both and parents should challenge sporting bodies that claim they can include all 3 and ask them how? As Ross say you can’t balance all 3 factors unless you only mean inclusion, fairness and safety for trans women ( which some people might do) but the converse of that is exclusion, unfairness and less safety for women and girls.
I think parents with sporty daughters ( and even with sons) now have an opportunity to raise this with schools and sporting bodies.
And sex remains the most important factor in division of sports not long arms or height as you hear people arguing sometimes.

Ross Tucker is fantastic. He speaks with such clarity and integrity. Great podcast!

And this. How has it come that the most marginalised ever can frighten so many people. Fucking unbelievable

Really enjoyed that podcast. No punches pulled on cutting through all the bullshitting.

You can have trans "inclusion" if you want but do it knowing that we all know that you are doing it absolutely at the expense of safety and fairness in sport for women and girls.

It is a choice plain and simple.

You can have trans "inclusion" if you want but do it knowing that we all know that you are doing it absolutely at the expense of safety and fairness in sport for women and girls.

Yes, thankfully the truth is finally out - really wondered if I'd ever see the day not too long ago.

@randomsabreuse

I have no issue with full inclusion at grassroots level sports for non contact type sports (tennis, badminton, table tennis) or even contact sports where males and females regularly train together (fencing). I have even less issue with mass participation running events. The issue will be drawing the line of where grassroots meets competitive - so tennis leagues - maybe the firsts have to obey "competitive" guidance but 2nd team and below can be open.

Perhaps mixed team events should become more of a thing in grassroots sports where there are no pressing safety concerns. This might well add competitive opportunities for women in sports where there are fewer women - might easier to field a mixed than a women's team!

Men have a HUGE advantage in tennis even at grassroots level.

And pretty much everything else / everything else.

Girls need to be able to try different things, continue those they enjoy and/ or are good at. Fairly. Because if its all mixed, after a certain age, if there are any boys. They will most often be defeated before they compete. No chance to win at all, often. Not feeling the joy of winning or funny well. Not having the same gauge of improvement. In short. If you never stand a chance then it's far less satisfying, uplifting, the urge to improve yourself is less.

This goes through all the clubs and the local regional etc events that are the background to most successful sports people. The most successful sports people are also driven. To get better faster stronger. To WIN. take that away and the number of women in sports will reduce across the board.

The thing is that women and girls are in society mainly and deep down. Not really meant to be competitive. To complete with the determination and yes aggressive mindset. Not anger but that massive desire to put everything into beating the others.

As a result, participation rates in sport and physical activity for trans people are poor. Research from 2019 (Outsport) shows that 54% of trans people feel excluded from particular sports or have at some point stopped participating in a particular sport as a result of discrimination around their gender identity, whilst 47% of trans women who are active in sport reported at least one negative personal experience in their sport as a result of discrimination and transphobia in the preceding 12 months.

This has nothing to do with sex segregation of sports though does it! Again the conflation. The report makes clear what was totally obvious that it's neither safe nor fair for women to have to compete against males in sports, in the vast majority of sports. That isn't transphobia, just a scientific fact that was obvious and has now been reiterated based on all of the evidence available from scientific studies of decent quality.

As for the content of the quote about the "transphobia", what do they mean? Women deciding that men won't compete in their sports? Or men being discriminatory against other men who feel a different "gender identity" to them and like to dress differently? The former is protected by law and they need to stop attacking for the various obvious reasons discussed here for years. The latter is where they should be focusing their energy: feeling comfortable to compete jn the appropriate sports team/ competition based on their SEX no matter what their "gender" is.

The thing with mixed stuff as well.

In theory it's great and I'm sure in practice it often works as well.

But.

There is another problem which will present, no idea whether a little or a lot.

And that is male socialisation.

DD used to do judo. She was in group aged 10- 13 or something like that. Mixed which I felt fine. I mean they wouldn't have the money volunteers numbers of both sexes to run it separate. Splitting into sexes when having a bout no good as far fewer boys. Anyway it was mixed. Cool. I was impressed by the men who taught who were lovely and obv more than happy to have girls there (not all men are unbiased mostly they don't realise they're doing it).

Anyway...

A male competing in women's sports events once tried to murder a sporting official and left that man with life-changing injuries. Whenever kindness, fairness and, 'What harm does it do? get trotted out, I think it behoves us to remind people that someone was almost murdered over this issue and it wasn't a woman, let alone a feminist, holding the knife. If they haven't heard about Ralph Knibbs that's because the media buried the story as much as was possible. Can you imagine how much coverage sports journalism would have given to the story if an official had almost been murdered over any other ethical issue?

Split into pairs take grip see who can do this move on the other to get them down.

First time vaguely watching.

Second bout switch partners. They check all have switched. Two girls had stayed together. One I had noticed over the weeks was v good. They looked incredibly reluctant when switched to boys. Or more, one looked like had to go to her doom and the other sympathetic.

The good one and a boy were in front of me so I watched the bout. Assuming the girls reaction was cos they were mates.

The girl beat the boy pretty easily. They instructor said same thing again and she just looked. Resigned. Bout started. Boy was obv a bit pissed off at breeding beaten before. Much more rough etc.

She beat him fairly easily. He went bright red with I suppose anger and humiliation? Got up. For a moment I thought shit the instructors haven't noticed in going to have to do something, because I could see that he was really on the verge of punching her in the face hard. She looked worried and backed away a bit. He stormed off, tearing up.

Yes it was a one off at the place.

But I've beaten boys and men at stuff (not sport) and the vast majority DO NOT LIKE IT AT ALL. And even adult men will start to feel like that boy did if you eg beat them at pool 3 times in a row.

And I suppose the response to that could be. If they're used to mixed sport that will really reduce that socialised male response.

But it won't because the boys and men will generally beat the women and girls.

Any thoughts on that aspect?

The long-awaited report argues there is no magic solution which balances the inclusion of trans women in female sport while guaranteeing competitive fairness and safety. And, for the first time, it tells sports across Britain that they will have to choose which to prioritise.

It is beyond me that these even need to be weighed up. Why ever should there even be "inclusion of transwomen in female sport" to begin with.