Woman

[FourteenSixteenTwentyTwo]

I’m not trying to be difficult and I’m sorry if it’s been done before, but my partner doesn’t have a definition of ‘woman’ that can also include ‘transwomen are women’ but insists they are under an ‘umbrella’ term but can’t explain what woman means.

So if it’s not ‘adult female human’ what it is?

I’m at a complete loss and feel like I’m arguing science and he’s arguing flat earth.

something about anyone who thinks they are a woman is a woman

Ask him why he's never had a relationship or sex with a transwoman.

@Schulte maybe have a look at comments/tweets from trans activists in response to the Keira Bell decision...Rosie Duffield…JKR…Labour conference. That’s what really got me interested in this debate. My automatic reaction to politicians saying it’s never acceptable to say women have cervix is “Wait…what?!” but questioning that statement seems to get you nowhere. No further into the debate, no solutions, no agreement on terminology, just cries of “transphobe”. The treatment of people like Rosie Duffield, the Lancet referring to bodies with vaginas…all of these comments seem to superficially support trans rights, but once you start delving into the implications of not freely using the word “woman” then the darker and abusive side of the argument pops up. The seeming unwavering support for trans rights completely ignores that the flip side is that women’s rights are being eroded and if you call them out on what they say they either lose their shit (hilariously Mr Lammy!) or trot out Be Kind…”mature and kind debate” style nuggets.

The way some trans women talk about is appalling and I know there’s abuse on both sides, but being told to suck lady cock (explaining what that was to my dh was interesting!) because you dared to disagree with puberty blockers or because you think woman are more than body parts is horrendous.

*Once again, I did not imply wrong bodies, I said male body. I am asking you where the spaces for trans women are, because I was under the impression that trans women simply use 'female' toilets etc, if they want to. From the responses I got, it sounded like that's not deemed right.

So I was also asking under what circumstances you think it would be ok for a trans woman to use a 'female' space, and that's why I mentioned surgery, because people on here said they would be offended by seeing a penis in a women's changing room, for example.

As far as I am concerned all spaces can be mixed.

I am most definitely not the transphobic person here.*

Please stop with the snide transphobic insults. It's really silly to cut down conversations like that just because people don't agree with you.

I accept your right to think that all spaces can be mixed Personally I think no female spaces which were set up as sex segregated spaces in order to protect a group of people who have been marginalised and oppressed because of their sex (not identity) should have males in them. Transwomen are biological males. Trans women may well use female toilets but a scarily large number of men rape, control, abuse and kill women, so clearly just because something is happening that doesn't mean it's OK. You've not (and neither has anyone else) offered a definition of woman which can be contrasted with the simple and accepted (by most people) one (adult human female). If you have one, please share it as then actual conversations can really start.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The momentthey’reconfused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions thatdon’tmake a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave rape crisis centers alone.

Oh my god, this actually made me cry as it sums up the dangers so well. What is being done to women right now is some of the most aggressive silencing shit for generations. I'm genuinely terrified for women's futures as now all protections have gone. Our leaders have shown they will sacrifice us for male votes.

[quote Schulte]@NewlyGranny yes I follow all that, thanks. And I agree. But I was told on here by some posters that MtoF people shouldn’t use female spaces, wasn’t I? Ok I’m still confused. What exactly do people want to happen?[/quote]
This sounds as if you think this is women's problem to solve. It isn't. Men's feeling about themselves doesn't change biological reality, regardless of surgery etc. they are still men and don't belong in women's spaces.

Why not ask trans people how they are going to solve this? Or men?

Women have fought for single sex spaces for a very good reason - to keep males out. We don't know the difference between the nice ones and the not so nice ones until it is too late. Also, our biology is just messier than theirs and we need privacy and dignity away from the male gaze.

Now some male are claiming to be women because of a feeling. I don't know what it feels to be a women, I just know that I am one because of biology. While I have a certain amount of sympathy for someone experiencing distress with their body, their feelings should not override women's right to single sex spaces.

The solution here is to provide a third space, not to make women's spaces mixed sex. But the trans activists are not interested in that, because it doesn't pander to their wants.

Sure, a third space might be the answer but apparently there’s issues with that too. So let’s turn the situation around. A trans man comes into the female toilets. According to you that’s where he should be because he was born a female, and that’s fine by me too. But how can you tell whether he’s a man or a trans man? You might feel threatened by his presence?

OP - there's no point arguing with him. It sounds like he may just be doing this to push your buttons because of course, it matters to you but evidently doesn't to him.
So, if the matter comes up, just tell him - you've given him the chance to come up with a coherent definition and he's utterly failed, so you'll stick to the one which has always existed and which makes perfect sense - logical and scientific.
Woman: adult human female.

Fortunately sex identification is usually rather easy

And most transmen being raised female are unlikely to use the ladies if they think other women will feel threatened

And transmen who do pass can use the gents because the reason we have gents facilities isn't to do with promoting thief equality or supporting them , but just do they don't use the ladies which does have an equality role .

Sure, a third space might be the answer but apparently there’s issues with that too.

What issues are there with 3rd spaces and who has these issues? Trans people who want to barge into places they don’t belong? Tough shit. If you don’t want to use the correct facilities for your sex and you won’t use a separate space what is the answer? Women just shut up?

The fact that some trans people may pass is not an argument for saying that all men should be able to come into the ladies or wherever if they want to. That's distraction not a real argument. This is like saying that some 17 year olds look old enough to buy booze without being age checked so we should just all children buy booze.

I haven't rtft but i wonder if he watches a lot of porn, and if some of it involves 'transwomen'. I think some of the twaw men find some 'transwomen' attractive and it undermines their understanding of themselves as heterosexual.

If twaw then the attraction they feel doesn't have wider implications and they can still consider themselves to be straight. This is just a theory I have after seeing so many lefty men on twitter get incredibly angry whenever anyone challenges the twaw mantra. They can't explain how twaw but it's essential, to their sense of self, that they are.

So I was also asking under what circumstances you think it would be ok for a trans woman to use a 'female' space, and that's why I mentioned surgery, because people on here said they would be offended by seeing a penis in a women's changing room, for example.

No circumstances. I don't want men in women's spaces.

It's always bloody bogs isn't it.

I think this is because it can be seen as trivial and a fuss about nothing.

And if all the women fold and say ok bogs on internal invisible gender.

Then that means that there's no reason to say female only for anything else.

What I find fascinating is the arguments put forward are so utterly devoid of any common sense, what used to happen, recognition of how real life works etc.

Shultz gives a good example of this.

A few years back. Before the weakening of the very long term and very strongly socially enforced convention that bogs changing rooms etc for women. Should not be entered by men and if they did the women had the right to make a hoo-ha. And he was probably dodgy.

Nevertheless you did used to occasionally see a TW in the loo. And what has always happened is. Women clock. Split second risk assessment. Maybe glance or 2 shared with other women. Yep. Clocked. And if they were quietly queueing would be politely ignored.

Now it's gender and an obvious male man looking like a man coming in should be assumed to be trans and any reaction is a microaggression and anything said (erm this is the ladies) is bigotry.

So women say no nope. Given an inch take a mile. No fucking way. For any male.

And thus old school transsexuals lose what they had because we have been nice and polite but now it's taking the piss.

And the question on the thread is oh but what if they've had surgery...!!!!???!!

NO SORRY. We were tolerant and kind. It is the current activists who have fucked things for transsexuals.

Not women.

So it's a problem for trans orgs supporters to sort out as they caused it in the first place. And no the answer is not telling us off about saying no to males in bogs FFS.

Let's alone prisons sports etc etc

Sorry shulte not Shultz.

And the fact is that trans people who pass will continue to use the opposite sex facilities as I'm sure they always have done because NO ONE WILL NOTICE.

Noting though that transmen often pass better than transwomen for various reason

That a transman is unlikely to want to use the ladies anyway as it would feel undermining to their identity. And also would not want to be seen as a threat/ intruder because they grew up as a girl woman and most will know it would be very unwelcome.

But in real life there are so many many sex markers from physical to behaviour that really it's not common esp for TW.

So this whole totally passing point applies to a tiny number of people who will carry on using the opposite sex bogs and no one will notice.

@Schulte

Sure, a third space might be the answer but apparently there’s issues with that too. So let’s turn the situation around. A trans man comes into the female toilets. According to you that’s where he should be because he was born a female, and that’s fine by me too. But how can you tell whether he’s a man or a trans man? You might feel threatened by his presence?

Someone who's taken so much testosterone that they've grown a beard and developed male pattern baldness is likely to get challenged in the women's toilets, yes. I think I could probably identify that person as female but most women would just be frightened. But why would a transman use the women's toilet anyway? You've just said they look like a man, and men are less adept at telling what sex someone is, so that individual can use the men's toilets without any drama - are you suggesting men would throw that person out? Or are you suggesting we are going to round up transmen and make them pee in the women's toilet? What transmen do with their bodies is up to them, it's not a gotcha to let men go wherever they please. That argument boils down to "if you let this bearded person in surely you should let every bearded person in". It's not my job to look after transmen either. They want to opt out of womanhood, let them. Let men embrace them and let the men and transmen sort all their manly problems out together. It still doesn't justify letting men into women's spaces. It's all just diversionary tactics to allow men into the very few spaces that are for women only. No.

Schulte, you can't tell if someone's had reassignment surgery when they're clothed and it would be really rude and inappropriate to ask! So it's wise to assume they haven't, and retain their penis, sincce we know this is true of the vast majority of transwomen.

Now it isn't the job of women to solve their problems which are caused by their fear of other men, is it? How are women supposed to sort that for them, and why should we even try? Our single sex facilities only exist because of our rational fear of predatory men, and women worked hard to gain them. Now we are working hard to keep them!

There's a lot of talk about "widening the bandwidth" of what being a woman is, generally meaning we women should accept bearded penis-havers in skirts and makeup as being women too.

I think a better solution is for non-conforming men to work at widening the bandwidth of what a man is so they are accepted in single-sex male facilities without harassment. Sadly I don't see that even being attempted. Why do MtoF people not campaign for run of the mill men to educate themselves instead of forcing their way into women's spaces, do you think?

@LumpySpacedPrincess

To be honest do you want to be with a misogynist? He knows what a woman is. He can find one when he wants one. He could walk through a crowd and pick all the women out, spot all the feminine men, all the masculine women.

He is choosing men and males. More rights for men because men want them and we cannot have sad men because they are men.

That's his choice.

Yep

Really good points from NiceGerbil as always.

Unfortunately I do feel that the thread has been derailed by another poster (such a rare occurrence 😒) but I do think this is part of a deeper issue for OP and it is something that would cause me to question the relationship. I'm sorry your partner has showed himself so blatantly OP.

OP, have you tried asking your DH the Staniland question? It can help focus the mind wonderfully. It goes something like,

" Is it OK by you for teenage girls changing for swimming to have to share communal space with intact men when everyone is naked?"

If he says the girls should get over themselves and just not look, and should just get used to random men looking at them, please don't have any children with him. 🙄

@GoodieMoomin

I haven't rtft but i wonder if he watches a lot of porn, and if some of it involves 'transwomen'. I think some of the twaw men find some 'transwomen' attractive and it undermines their understanding of themselves as heterosexual.

If twaw then the attraction they feel doesn't have wider implications and they can still consider themselves to be straight. This is just a theory I have after seeing so many lefty men on twitter get incredibly angry whenever anyone challenges the twaw mantra. They can't explain how twaw but it's essential, to their sense of self, that they are.

This explains so much!! The way men worry that if they admit to liking something specific sexually that it might mean they’re gay. If TWAW (tits etc) then it’s all ok and they can go about their day not worrying about their own sexuality, all the while shitting all over everyone else’s by declaring them T*s and telling lesbians they’re the unreasonable ones for NOT fancying lady dick.

It's not my job to look after transmen either. They want to opt out of womanhood, let them. Let men embrace them and let the men and transmen sort all their manly problems out together

And 100% this too.

If a female wants to opt out of womanhood then they can use the men’s loos and changing rooms and see if there’s any reaction from the men who’s space that has traditionally been. There may be some raised eyebrows, there may be some inappropriate comments once it becomes clear (as it often does) that this person has a female sexed body, etc. What I can 100% guarantee would never happen is that many of the men in that space would freeze momentarily and consider their physical safety due to the presence of this TM. They wouldn’t be assessing their escape route and wondering if the TM is going to kick off and get violent if they challenge them. Even with a beard and a body full of testosterone it’s unlikely that the TM’s physical presence is particularly threatening as they will have grown as a woman, shorter on average with a smaller build, and most importantly been socialised as a girl to make themselves small and unobtrusive. I don’t know how much the T makes someone take over a space and disregard the feelings of those around them - not all men do iit etc - but I’d take a good guess that a TM will naturally want to make themselves blend in, whereas whenever I’ve encountered TMs in the women’s toilets (probably only 5 or 6 times that I’m aware of) they have always gone out of their way to chat to everyone, to make sure they are seen and accepted as “one of the girls” and everyone has always been very polite in doing so.