Woman

[FourteenSixteenTwentyTwo]

I’m not trying to be difficult and I’m sorry if it’s been done before, but my partner doesn’t have a definition of ‘woman’ that can also include ‘transwomen are women’ but insists they are under an ‘umbrella’ term but can’t explain what woman means.

So if it’s not ‘adult female human’ what it is?

I’m at a complete loss and feel like I’m arguing science and he’s arguing flat earth.

Aren’t all these discussions flawed because they are based on generalisations and putting people in defined categories? Surely everyone is just somewhere on a spectrum, in their very own way.

Biology aside, I’m sure I have more in common with some men than some women.

No, I'm not on a 'spectrum'. I am a woman. My partner and I had unexplained infertility. Never did any doctor check where we were on a 'spectrum'. I have eggs and he has sperm. Full stop. There is no 'spectrum'.

If everyone's kn a spectrum then what is transition ?

Moving along the spectrum to somewhere that feels right?

Bit you'd already be there surely?

No moving required

You can't use the binary to define yourself against then pretend it simultaneously doesn't exist.

These definitions/explanations erase transpeople as you cant transition to or from anything that doesn't exists

"Husband, I'm really upset and horrified that you are dismissing my concerns. This is important but you won't think about it seriously. That's so disrespectful when it is such a key concept. This isn't something we can ignore. It matters. "

@Franca123

No, I'm not on a 'spectrum'. I am a woman. My partner and I had unexplained infertility. Never did any doctor check where we were on a 'spectrum'. I have eggs and he has sperm. Full stop. There is no 'spectrum'.

Like I said, biology aside. I’m a woman too but when I look at my friends some of them are a lot more ‘womanly’ than me. In the way they look, or behave. In their sexuality too, some of them are drawn to other women and others very much not. Girls in my daughter’s class are now boys and everyone is happy. Why do we have to have a clearly defined category for everything and everyone?

What's womanly when it's at home?

You are either male or female and the rest is personality. The only people putting people in boxes are gender enthusiasts who decide stereotypes determin what you are.

@Whatwouldscullydo

Bit you'd already be there surely?

No moving required

Ok then… explain it to me. You don’t think there’s a spectrum, so everyone sits in a defined pot. What is transition then?

@Whatwouldscullydo

What's womanly when it's at home?

You are either male or female and the rest is personality. The only people putting people in boxes are gender enthusiasts who decide stereotypes determin what you are.

I’ve got a funny feeling we actually agree on a fundamental level?

Everyone is male and female that's it. Those are the only 2 " boxes" and nature did that.

Everyone is free to do what they want play with what they want and wear what they want within the confines of the law.

Healthcare /prisons etc are not or at least should not be based on anything other than that. You don't get bored as male or female based on who likes cars any more more you'd be recorded as male or female based on who likes eastenders amd who likes top gear.

Why do we have to have a clearly defined category for everyone?

So we can write laws & have spaces that protect women of the adult human female kind no matter how ‘womanly’ they present or behave

So we don’t lock intact rapists up with women because they ‘identify as a woman’, so we don’t have Women’s sports colonised by men who ‘feel like women’, so that programmes designed to increase Women’s representation increase the participation of actual women not the pips bunces of this world

How is it this still has to be explained?

We need to have a clearly defined category because people want laws to be written or rewritten. A law is less than useless if it unenforceable which it will be if it is continually challenged and because of ambiguity in the drafting courts can’t hand down decisions that can be relied upon. Public opinion can influence law, but it’s up to the legislature to ensure that laws can function. And that’s what this subject misses. You can’t legislate on what “women” can do if you don’t precisely define what a “woman” is. I wold not want to be in a traditionally woman only space and have to look at a penis. If I’m in a changing room and a biologically male naked body wandered through I would feel very threatened. I can only imagine what it would feel like to be in a refuge having escaped violence to be greeted with the same thing. Identify however you want to (and I have the deepest sympathy and empathy for anyone having to go through gender related issues), campaign for increased services for trans gender people (access to healthcare etc) but don’t start making it unacceptable to use the word woman while not offering a satisfactory alternative. I am not a lump of meat with biologically specific organs and I shall not be reduced to such.

I couldn’t be with someone so thick tbh. Luckily my DP is just as convinced as I am that these people are simply taking the piss for attention. Everyone knows what a woman is. We were all born out of one. Anyone who says that woman is a feeling or a construct is a bit hard of thinking and needs to educate themselves.

The only possible category that can include all women and all transwomen is “human”, and it also rather usefully includes all men and all transmen too.

If we’re going to start splitting people into other categories we need to be able to say what the criteria are to belong to that category. Just plonking down a box and saying “anyone who wants to go in this box belongs in it, no debate” doesn’t really make much sense in terms of categorising.

And yes. If your DP is straight he knows full well what a woman is. It’s one of the ones you definitely DO want to stick your dick in. It’s the ones you ignore at work. It’s the ones you expect to pick up your shit off the floor when you can’t be arsed to do it yourself. It’s the ones you will choose to carry your children and to put in 80% of the effort of raising them too. It’s not hard. Anyone making it so is deliberately trying to seem controversial - it’s all just a bit boring now tbh.

Ok, thanks for the explanations. Some of this stuff truly confuses me. But please tell me, where are the spaces for trans women and trans men then… if they are not welcome in a women’s toilet for example? It’s a genuine question!

Use the male and female facilities like everyone else based on sex

[quote Schulte]@EdgeOfACoin, ‘ What do all women and transwomen have in common with each other that they don't have in common with any men or transmen?’

Can YOU answer that question?[/quote]
No, I can't. That's why I've been asking it for years. There's nothing that I can think of that links all women and transwomen. That's why I don't understand what criteria mtf transitioners are using to identify into women's spaces or when they say that they feel like women.

Can you give me an answer, @Schulte?

Remember my other question. Replace the word 'woman' with the word 'squigadoo' to check if your answer is intelligible.

Part of the reason why I became GC was because nobody could answer this question. If you can answer it, maybe I will reconsider my position.

Now, obviously I may have more in common with some men and mtf transitioners than I do with other women. Hobbies and interests, for example. Humour. Tastes in art. But those shared traits have nothing to do with a simple biological category.

So if you feel you are a woman but were born in a male body you must use the male toilets until you’ve had surgery? No exceptions?

Thats incredibly transphobic. The term " born in the wrong body" is mo longer used.

If you could define what a man ge Derek identity is and what a woman identity is that would be great

Man gender identity

No idea who Derek is

So if you feel you are a woman

How does one 'feel' like a woman?

How do others know whether you genuinely feel like a woman or are just there for nefarious purposes?

And it's not just toilets - what about communal gym changing rooms where there are no cubicles, eg Fitness First, Virgin Active or, say, a naked spa in California?

Ummm I didn’t say wrong body. I said male body. What’s wrong with that? How is that trans phobic?

Can you answer what a man identity is?

Amd a woman identity?

How do we know if we have one ?