Woman

[FourteenSixteenTwentyTwo]

I’m not trying to be difficult and I’m sorry if it’s been done before, but my partner doesn’t have a definition of ‘woman’ that can also include ‘transwomen are women’ but insists they are under an ‘umbrella’ term but can’t explain what woman means.

So if it’s not ‘adult female human’ what it is?

I’m at a complete loss and feel like I’m arguing science and he’s arguing flat earth.

‘ Can you give me an answer, @Schulte?’

No! That’s why I was asking you

Aren’t you getting hung up on semantics here? Are you saying that it’s not possible to genuinely believe you’re a woman when you are born as a boy? I truly don’t understand what you are saying.

@Schulte

Aren’t all these discussions flawed because they are based on generalisations and putting people in defined categories? Surely everyone is just somewhere on a spectrum, in their very own way.

Biology aside, I’m sure I have more in common with some men than some women.

No. You’re confusing your personality with biology. Your personality means that you think you may have more in common with some men than women.

Your biology is what makes you a woman. Biological sex is not a spectrum, personality is.

You need to define your terms so we can ensure we are on the same page befire anyone can answer that.

I use sex based definitions so boy = juvenile male human
Girl = juvenile female human.

Sex/ biology based. No feelings involved.

So what definition are you working from because without knowing just all meaningless really

I think you know what I mean, but if it helps make my question clearer:

Are you saying that it’s not possible to genuinely believe you’re a woman when you are born with a male body?

And, if you agree it is possible... should you not be able to move in 'women's' spaces while you wait for your surgery? At least in spaces where you will not be naked in front of others?

I don't know what it feels like to be a woman only know what it feels like to be me. I don't know what it feels like to be a man so how could I claim to be one? I am a woman because I am an adult human female. I live in Jeans, jumpers and tshirts. I have short hair, I don't wear makeup. The only thing that says I am a woman is my biology. I'm even bloody awesome at maths and sciences specifically physics.

I can't tell you schulte what I have in common with a trans woman but not a man or trans man because the answer is probably nothing. But I'm not the one who is saying woman and trans woman are the same.

It is our biology which is the basis for the experiences we grow up with and you can't change that.

No I don't know what you mean that's why I'm asking you to define the terms.

What definition of man/woman are we working from?.

You do have one right?

And surgery is irrelevant because a male who had his penis amputated due to cancer /illness doesn't become a woman he becomes a male without a penis so surgery doesn't change anything there must be something else you are basing the definition on

@Schulte

I think you know what I mean, but if it helps make my question clearer:

Are you saying that it’s not possible to genuinely believe you’re a woman when you are born with a male body?

And, if you agree it is possible... should you not be able to move in 'women's' spaces while you wait for your surgery? At least in spaces where you will not be naked in front of others?

Do you realise that your last comment about surgery would be deemed as transphobic, you don't need surgery in fact it's a very very small percentage of trans women who actually get surgery.

Are you saying that it’s not possible to genuinely believe you’re a woman when you are born with a male body?
It is possible for a man to believe they are a woman. It's also been the case that people believe that they are Napoleon, Crown Princess Anastasia, or even Jesus Christ.

And, if you agree it is possible... should you not be able to move in 'women's' spaces while you wait for your surgery? At least in spaces where you will not be naked in front of others?
No. Because you are not a woman by any scientific definition of the term.

It's a canary in the coal mine issue for me. If a man doesn't believe an actual woman telling him what womanhood is, he's a mansplainer / misogynist.
This is a good point.

Are you saying that it’s not possible to genuinely believe you’re a woman when you are born with a male body?

Is it possible to genuinely believe without having a learning difficulty that you are a child of 6 when you are an adult?

Is it possible to genuinely believe you are of another race when you have absolutely no family history to that race or any cultural connection?

Why do you believe a male can genuinely believe that they are a woman when they have absolutely no knowledge of what a 'woman' is? Just that they don't feel like 'man' should feel like in their eyes and there is no alternative sex to identify as.

OK none of you are actually answering my questions, which is a shame because I am really trying to understand your positions, without judgment. I have no particular agenda on this, I just thought I'd educate myself by asking you to explain, but you're not explaining.

I have seen a few of these threads and every time I try to get my head around what people are actually saying, I fail. I am not thick. I am also not transphobic, and I don't understand why you would think that either.

If these discussions are meant to lead to anything then they should perhaps be a little more... I don't know? Understanding of the fact that not everyone is completely up to date with whatever is currently deemed the 'right' terminology?

So long.

Are you saying that it’s not possible to genuinely believe you’re a woman when you are born with a male body?

What difference does it make if some people are convinced their body is wrong? The whole argument boils down to "you must play along and be nice otherwise they will be sad."

Why is it my responsibility to ensure someone isn't sad? Why are laws being changed so someone won't be sad? Why are we being bombarded with emotional blackmail and fake suicide statistics?

Why aren't men telling transwomen that they are respected and will be safe in men's prisons and men's hospital wards and men's changing rooms? Why do women have to accommodate them, just because they have a belief and/or they are sad? I'm not their mum.

I also don't share their religious-type beliefs about male and female souls or identities, and I find the list of "womanly" personality traits quite sexist. I don't believe humans can change sex, regardless of hormone medication or surgery. I also believe the studies show that medication and surgery don't result in better outcomes for these people, who are still sad ten years after a "sex change".

So yeah, whether an individual's belief that their body is wrong is a genuine belief or not is irrelevant to me.

OP, ask him if his mother is a woman. If he says "of course", ask him how he can tell....

Your the one not answering question. We cabt answer anything until we know what we are talking about.

Please can you explain what definition of women and men you are working from.

And implying bodies are wrong and that operations make the difference is indeed transphobic.

Dysphoria is not necessary to be considered trans. Nor is surgery.

Ask him how he knows a female dog is a female dog.

'And implying bodies are wrong and that operations make the difference is indeed transphobic.'

Once again, I did not imply wrong bodies, I said male body. I am asking you where the spaces for trans women are, because I was under the impression that trans women simply use 'female' toilets etc, if they want to. From the responses I got, it sounded like that's not deemed right.

So I was also asking under what circumstances you think it would be ok for a trans woman to use a 'female' space, and that's why I mentioned surgery, because people on here said they would be offended by seeing a penis in a women's changing room, for example.

As far as I am concerned all spaces can be mixed.

I am most definitely not the transphobic person here.

OK none of you are actually answering my questions

I did.

ALL spaces?? Prisons? Womens refuges? Womens sports? Every single womens soave should be open to men who say they are women??

That is a hot take….

Oh and I’m not offended by a penis fgs!! I’ve had sex, I like cocks so please don’t behave as if we’re Pearl clutching at the thought of seeing a dick

Schulte. Apologies if you were asked upthread and I missed it. What are your definitions of “woman” and “female”? I think this is where the problems start. We’re using the same words with different definitions.

@Schulte

OK none of you are actually answering my questions, which is a shame because I am really trying to understand your positions, without judgment. I have no particular agenda on this, I just thought I'd educate myself by asking you to explain, but you're not explaining.

I have seen a few of these threads and every time I try to get my head around what people are actually saying, I fail. I am not thick. I am also not transphobic, and I don't understand why you would think that either.

If these discussions are meant to lead to anything then they should perhaps be a little more... I don't know? Understanding of the fact that not everyone is completely up to date with whatever is currently deemed the 'right' terminology?

So long.

@Schulte, we are answering your questions.

The problem is, we don't believe that you can have a 'male brain in a female body' or vice versa.

We don't believe in gender identity. The point we are trying to make is that there is no objective yardstick by which 'gender identity' can be measured. Nobody knows what it 'feels like' to be a woman if they have a male body.

If I start from the proposition "a woman is someone who likes pink", you would rightly call that out for the sexist nonsense that it is.

So when a male-bodied person says they 'feel like a woman' - how do we know? What are they basing that on? And why do laws have to be rewritten on the basis of something that nobody can describe? Especially when doing so leads to male-bodied people being put into women's single-sex spaces?

We are saying there is no scientific rationale for any of this and it is putting women's rights at risk.

@Schulte

'And implying bodies are wrong and that operations make the difference is indeed transphobic.'

Once again, I did not imply wrong bodies, I said male body. I am asking you where the spaces for trans women are, because I was under the impression that trans women simply use 'female' toilets etc, if they want to. From the responses I got, it sounded like that's not deemed right.

So I was also asking under what circumstances you think it would be ok for a trans woman to use a 'female' space, and that's why I mentioned surgery, because people on here said they would be offended by seeing a penis in a women's changing room, for example.

As far as I am concerned all spaces can be mixed.

I am most definitely not the transphobic person here.

A make bodied person is a male, regardless of how they feel about themselves. Even if they 'genuinely' believe that they are women (whatever that means), why is that everyone else's problem to deal with? Surely they should get psychological help to deal with the incongruence between fantasy and reality.

I don't know what it means to feel like a women, I just know that I am one because my biology tells me so.

Would you say that someone who suffers from body dysmorphia and has anorexia should be just accepted and encouraged to starve themselves? Shouldn't their beliefs be challenged?

Also, as far as you are concerned all spaces can be mixed? Well, how nice for you to decide on behalf of all women. Thankfully, it's not up to you to tell women that we shouldn't have single sex spaces.

So I was also asking under what circumstances you think it would be ok for a trans woman to use a 'female' space, and that's why I mentioned surgery, because people on here said they would be offended by seeing a penis in a women's changing room, for example.

FYI, most transwomen keep their male penis. And according to the trans activists, just declaring themselves women should be enough to be fully accepted as women, no surgery or hormones required . Do you really think that's ok?