Woman

[FourteenSixteenTwentyTwo]

I’m not trying to be difficult and I’m sorry if it’s been done before, but my partner doesn’t have a definition of ‘woman’ that can also include ‘transwomen are women’ but insists they are under an ‘umbrella’ term but can’t explain what woman means.

So if it’s not ‘adult female human’ what it is?

I’m at a complete loss and feel like I’m arguing science and he’s arguing flat earth.

As far as I am concerned all spaces can be mixed

Do you genuinely believe that all spaces including prisons and open changing rooms should be mixed sex becuase you are unaware of the sporting opportunities wonen and girls would miss out on or the danger women and girls placed in ?

Or do you think.its just the " kind" thing to do so some males who don't feel like males despite never giving a coherent definition of what a woman akd a Woman.identity actually is?

Is being kind worth placing your sisters akd daughters at risk of prestige male behaviour? How do mixed sex spaces benefit women given 98 percent of sexual crime against women is at the hands of men?

As far as I am concerned all spaces can be mixed.

Ok. Great.

What about those women and girls who have very valid reasons for needing to only have females in single sex spaces? Such as victims of sex abuse, rape and assault or just anyone who doesn't want a male due to a need for privacy. Or those with religious needs? Is it ok for them to be excluded, through self-exclusion usually, from spaces that they need to function?

Personally, having had to deal with breasts exploding with milk and needing to have my shirt off and drying under a hand dryer in the female toilets, I most certainly don't want to have a male of any description even if they fully believe they are a woman there too. Because they simply cannot empathise with me for such a predictment.

Same too for my elderly mother who did not have access to a easy access toilet and her wheelchair meant the cubicle was wide open while she used the toilets. Because I could not leave her unattended at all and there was only me. Should she lose her privacy.

Or me again, dealing with flooding periods with a sleeping child in a pram jamming the door open. Certainly not pleasant for any person to witness but at least it is a modicum less embarrassing for me if I know that they may well have dealt with something similar at one time.

Or should me or my mother simply stay at home because our needs for privacy are not as important as a male's needs.

And that patterns of criminality do not change according to self declared identity in fact 48 percent of the male prisoners who claim.to be trans are also sex offenders. Do you think they should be in a womans prison

@Schulte

OK none of you are actually answering my questions, which is a shame because I am really trying to understand your positions, without judgment. I have no particular agenda on this, I just thought I'd educate myself by asking you to explain, but you're not explaining.

I have seen a few of these threads and every time I try to get my head around what people are actually saying, I fail. I am not thick. I am also not transphobic, and I don't understand why you would think that either.

If these discussions are meant to lead to anything then they should perhaps be a little more... I don't know? Understanding of the fact that not everyone is completely up to date with whatever is currently deemed the 'right' terminology?

So long.

Actually you have been asnwered. It has been pointed out to youthat your questions are too simplistic.

Like the pre-surgery comment. The vast majority of trans people don't have much surgery. Most transwomen have breast augmentation and sme facial surgery but retain their male sex organs. To demand that any surgery is required to be trans is deemed to be insulting and transphobic - as was pointed out to you.

We don't make that rule. But if you are going to have this kind of conversation you will need to know what the parameters are!

You fail to get your head around it not because you are thick but because it is illogical, circular and just plain daft.

And that 'right terminology' is harmful to women and thie rights, as is discussed here so boringly bloody often. So we won't be updating ourselves. We just want the whole raft of "Kings in the Altogether" to come to their senses and to stop trying to approriate 'woman'

Sayonara!

Ask him if trans women are women would he date one?

Especially as most still have their genitals 🤷‍♀️

I do think people should be able to live as they wish, but not pretend that they have changed sex. It isn't possible, why can't they just own it and be trans

@Schulte hi. I noticed you asked a few times if someone male can believe they are a woman. My answer would be yes. Of course they can believe this. It doesn't make it true. Plenty of people believe things that are false. I have no need to personally try to change an individual's belief about themselves. However, when that belief conflicts with the rights of others, we don't need to accommodate.

There are people in my country who believe all women should stay at home to raise their children and there are some people who believe women should not be allowed to be politicians. As a society, we do not accommodate these beliefs because they infringe upon the rights of women, yet we accept that some people may live these beliefs in their personal lives.

@FourteenSixteenTwentyTwo

We’ve been continuing this argument for some time. He’s always dismissive but there’s been times where I felt we were close. He was very almost on my side - but then we end here again. And I don’t even know why! He’s not even personally friends with anyone who identifies in that circle. He either hates women or is going full on woke (or both, it’s not mutually exclusive). But I don’t get it. It upsets me and he has no skin in the game. All I want is to know exactly what it is he’s arguing but he doesn’t seem to have a clue.

He’s always dismissive ... But I don’t get it. It upsets me

I'd hazard a guess that at some level, he likes you being upset. It makes him feel all powerful that he can make you feel that way.

How entwined are your lives (children, mortgage etc.)? Because if the answer is 'not very' or 'not so much that I can't give him his marching orders', I'd be inclined to dump him ASAP. He doesn't respect women, and that means he doesn't respect you.

OK, I can see some of you have kindly explained it now and I get it. Thank you. Although not all of it, but I'll leave it there!

Schultz, let's follow this through logically.

A male-bodied person believes they are a woman. No problem for anyone else and no business of theirs, either.

That person signs up for surgery (though most MtoF don't, in fact) and begins to present as a woman - clothes, hair, makeup, the externals.

They now feel uncomfortable, even unsafe, using the Gents' because they fear negative reactions, even violence, from other men.

They want to use the Ladies' because no men are allowed in there, making it a safe, single-sex space.

The moment anyone can self ID and people are told they are free to use the facilities that they feel match their gender identity, the door has been kicked open, predatory men are free to walk in alongside the MtoF individuals, cannot be challenged and can do their worst.

So the safe, single-sex space that women resorted to and MtoF coveted is lost to all and everybody who needed or wanted to access it.

Do you see?

Women are no longer safe there. MtoF people are not safe there either. Nobody is safe anywhere any longer. Safety is compromised and everyone is looking over their shoulder.

Unless of course you naïvely trust that no predatory man would ever dream of abusing the golden opportunity the TRAs have handed him, in which case you are living in cloud-cuckoo-land. Predatory men will scarcely be able to believe their luck, or credit how stupid everyone is being in making it easy for them to exploit gender ideology.

You can say it would never happen all you like, but of course it already has, and can only get worse. At least someone might have spotted a man going into the Ladies' and reported it for security to check out, perhaps averting a sexual assault or worse. But in future, nobody will blink an eye, security will shrug and say it's legal and women, girls and MtoF people will be left vulnerable.

It's not about letting transwomen into single-sex spaces, is it? It's about who follows them in when the sign on the door has been changed to "All Comers".

Please tell me you have followed the logic.

If predatory men are honestly not a problem and never have been, why are MtoF people clamouring to use women's single-sex spaces in the first place?

Schulte, sorry. Blame autocorrect!

Not long ago, it was brought to our attention the growing porn category that revolves around males who have transitioned masturbating in the female toilets? There is at least one that is easily found where that male filming live in the female toilets with children in the next cubicle. Of course, these males have their penises and have developed breasts.

This is actually happening across the world and it is not something that we are making up. And from all accounts, is a rapidly growing category.

I believe it to be easily searched for via google and there was a twitter thread pulling a few examples together that was deleted, but it was archived I believe. Although maybe the video components were not captured.

Note: there is no doubt a small group of people doing this, it is definitely not a generalisation about the motivation of trans people.

However, it would also be absolutely false to say that this never happens.

@NewlyGranny yes I follow all that, thanks. And I agree. But I was told on here by some posters that MtoF people shouldn’t use female spaces, wasn’t I? Ok I’m still confused. What exactly do people want to happen?

[quote Schulte]@NewlyGranny yes I follow all that, thanks. And I agree. But I was told on here by some posters that MtoF people shouldn’t use female spaces, wasn’t I? Ok I’m still confused. What exactly do people want to happen?[/quote]
How about men are more inclusive in their safe spaces. Why aren't they welcoming trans women into the toilets. If they are violent towards them, why isn't this being addressed.

Women do not need to step aside for men.

How about men are more inclusive in their safe spaces. Why aren't they welcoming trans women into the toilets

This. And also third spaces.

Regarding toilets, there are options of making the males toilets mixed sex and keep the females single sex.

There are ways to do this but it has been women, females who have been forced to change. And no one was asked, no discussion was had.

[quote Schulte]@NewlyGranny yes I follow all that, thanks. And I agree. But I was told on here by some posters that MtoF people shouldn’t use female spaces, wasn’t I? Ok I’m still confused. What exactly do people want to happen?[/quote]
We want people to respect single-sex spaces.

I'd like to help you understand. What do you find confusing?

What exactly do people want to happen?

The women here simply do not want males in female spaces. Because that would stop them being female spaces.

The practical way to achieve that would be for them to use either male spaces, or to have a third space available - preferably private. Some communal mixed-sex may also be appropriate, but I imagine many trans people would be as unhappy with that as the rest of us.

Why on earth do you think transwomen shouldn't be in male toilets (or sports, or whatever)? In this modern world where we know trans people exist, why should transwomen be ashamed of being male? And surely men should accept transwomen into male spaces?

You seem to be stuck in a sort of archaic notion that women's toilets are for "people wearing dresses" or something. No, they're for female people. In this modern world, some males do wear dresses.

If any men object to transwomen in the male toilets, then you can deal with that via the laws and policies against transphobia.

But sure, some transwomen may not be happy sharing spaces with other males, so private extra spaces for them make sense.

But logically, unlike females, transwomen cannot use communal female-only spaces to be away from males. Only females can use female-only spaces, by definition.

What exactly do people want to happen?

This still implies it's my problem to solve. It isn't. If a man is frightened by other men, it's not my job to protect him.

And why just crossdressing men? Why not gay men, elderly men, disabled men, small men, skinny men?

Do we have to play mummy to all of them or at some point do we tell men it's their responsibility to sort out their own problems?

Also, if I wanted to invite all these men into my own home to keep them safe, that's up to me. But what's happening is that they are being invited into other women's homes, women who haven't been asked, and who say no. Every "Well I'm not fussed, let them do what they like" is actually saying "I'm alright Jack, I don't give a fuck if other women are upset".

What I find confusing is that you seem to say (and forgive me if I got this wrong) that trans women should never be in female single sex spaces under any circumstances. Because allowing that invites people who abuse this ‘right’. Correct?

But equally it’s totally understandable if they don’t want to use the male toilets.

You also seem to say a man can never become a woman no matter what the law says but again perhaps I misunderstood.

I just wonder where that leaves people who have transitioned.

Then it turns out a woman is a social construct

So does he think he might become pregnant? If not, why not?

@Schulte

What I find confusing is that you seem to say (and forgive me if I got this wrong) that trans women should never be in female single sex spaces under any circumstances. Because allowing that invites people who abuse this ‘right’. Correct?

But equally it’s totally understandable if they don’t want to use the male toilets.

You also seem to say a man can never become a woman no matter what the law says but again perhaps I misunderstood.

I just wonder where that leaves people who have transitioned.

If you think toilets are the main problem then let's look at it this way. A man knocks on your door at midnight and asks to use your toilet. Is it your responsibility to accommodate him?

Between a rock and a hard place with a worsening situation for many of them as a result of the ideology of those who view trans as identity rather than a serious mental health disorder ( which the early trans cohort generally have )

Third spaces ...sex and neutral would help them.

Until recently they are a very small number with special requirements in things like hospital which should be met with respect and privacy -one off solutions ( private room for example )

You also seem to say a man can never become a woman no matter what the law says but again perhaps I misunderstood.

Well, yes, much as a man cannot become a dog no matter what the law says.

There are indeed many wondering what the GRA2004 is for at this point. It was created to let homosexual trans people get married before gay marriage was legal. A special "pass" to let them get married as if heterosexual.

This reason no longer applies.

I just wonder where that leaves people who have transitioned.

Well, they're hopefully happy with whatever they've done with their body (if anything). And presumably they would be dressing as they feel appropriate to signal some attachment to being the opposite sex, and likely using a name normally attached to the opposite sex.

What more do they need? Generally speaking, in this modern society, "men" and "women" should not be being treated differently, so it doesn't really make sense to say they should be "treated as if they were the opposite sex".

The only restriction on them would be that in the VERY small number of things that are in some way split by sex or restricted to typical sexes, they would not be categorised as the opposite sex. Things like sport, prisons, changing rooms.

Letting in 5,000/500,000/whatever "transwomen" also stops women being able to challenge 30,000,000 men.

As we see with the Labour conference thing where an obvious male is going on about "transphobic abuse" - apparently for being challenged in the women's toilets. Patricia looks like any male ex-70s radio DJ. If women can't challenge Patricia, they can't challenge any man.

I just wonder where that leaves people who have transitioned.

The law doesn’t even recognise trans women with a GRC as women or trans men as men in all cases, but the most the law can do is provide a GRC.

The GRA was passed to protect the right to privacy, but it can’t change biological sex.

Exactly, NecessaryScene and merrymouse are correct.

And in any case, it's not women's responsibility to make men who are sad feel less sad.

@WomaninBoots

We all know what a woman is. Can we just stop pretending otherwise. It is really stupid.

Yes. We need to stop arguing about this. Is so disrespectful, the only aim is to gaslight and undermine women.

OP I don't know how I could live with a man, have a relationship with a man who was so distainful towards me. Does he behave in a similar way in other aspects of your life?