Woman

[FourteenSixteenTwentyTwo]

I’m not trying to be difficult and I’m sorry if it’s been done before, but my partner doesn’t have a definition of ‘woman’ that can also include ‘transwomen are women’ but insists they are under an ‘umbrella’ term but can’t explain what woman means.

So if it’s not ‘adult female human’ what it is?

I’m at a complete loss and feel like I’m arguing science and he’s arguing flat earth.

The definition he's looking for is a woman is anyone who says they're a woman because that makes absolute sense and totally stands up to scrutiny. It's a definition we can use successfully in law, healthcare and so on because it's so useful.

We’ve been continuing this argument for some time. He’s always dismissive but there’s been times where I felt we were close. He was very almost on my side - but then we end here again. And I don’t even know why! He’s not even personally friends with anyone who identifies in that circle. He either hates women or is going full on woke (or both, it’s not mutually exclusive). But I don’t get it. It upsets me and he has no skin in the game. All I want is to know exactly what it is he’s arguing but he doesn’t seem to have a clue.

@Passmeamenuatthetottenham

Ask him if he would ever sleep with a transwoman and if not, why not.

This!!

I wouldn't hold out much hope of a definition. People have been asking for one from the very loud trans lobby for a very long time and they don't feel inclined to provide one.

Perhaps you could identify as a man and see how he feels about being a gay man - nothing wrong with that but might change his identity somewhat.

Oops cross post.
I'll be willing to bet he would never consider a transwoman to be a real woman when it comes to sexual partners.

@Doyoumind

The definition he's looking for is a woman is anyone who says they're a woman because that makes absolute sense and totally stands up to scrutiny. It's a definition we can use successfully in law, healthcare and so on because it's so useful.

Am I missing something? You might not agree with this definition, but it presumably is the one which gender believers and trans activists would use to define the gender category of woman, and within their logic system it seems to make sense.

Clearly biologists and lawyers might define the word differently, but the same could be said for other words.

Which other words have a very clear legal and medical definition and a colloquial definition which is completely at odds with that Muriel?

He knows damn well what a woman is.

All those blokes logging onto pornhub. They know.. lots of handwringing in real life on Twitter about it is oh so complicated, and all that. But the average search history shows how really it isn’t complicated at all.

They’ve always known who gets raped more, paid less

Who gets trafficked, subject to forced marriage, or just aborted or abandoned at birth.

Funny. That.

Does he pull his weight around the house? If not, I'd start dropping to his standards and insist on being called "he/him".

You need a toddler to help. My DGS is learning to talk and everyone is mumumum or dadadad. Nobody taught him the difference, he just knows there are mum-type people and dad-type people and he's 100% right every time. He looks, he identifies, he points, he utters. And he hasn't a clue what a cervix is.

If a 17-month-old baby has it all worked out, what the hell has gone wrong with Keir Starmer et al?

I suppose we'll need to silence this dangerous skill before he's arrested for hate speech. 🙄

He can tell a dog from a cat, too. Who knew?

I was thinking more of things like ethnicity classifications, where there is no legal or biological definition at all. But to answer your actual question, there are words like "tenant" or "company" which have closely drawn legal definitions, but which are used a bit more loosely outside technical legal discussions. There have been instances where the word "spouse" in legislation was taken to include an unmarried partner in order to achieve a fair outcome.

I don't think a mismatch between the legal use and the way a word is used colloquially is a knock-down argument for the GC side.

In answer to @Whatiswrongwithmyknee

This might seem a daft question but are you a woman?

If you are then I'd just assume he's taking the piss because clearly he knows what a woman is and go from there.

OP, I suggest you spend a week or two being an because you say you are, and lose all your womanly skills and socialisation. Model yourself on your DH. See if he can tell the difference.

Being a man!

Leaving it is best from a relationship POV.

He's not interested in women/girls.

He is not listening and when you point out he can't even explain anything at all about words beliefs. He gets angry. Because he can't.

He's not going to think about anything you say.

So leave it.

...

I couldn't personally because I've been a feminist since before i was a child who didn't know the word.

And I couldn't be with someone who refused to even discuss and consider.

...

Things you could do.

Start sometimes saying eg have you seen the news? WHO staff have been raping people with vaginas in X. It's terrible. What do you think? Or whatever you talk about.

Tell him ok you're identifying as a man. He's now in a gay relationship. You feel happier than ever.

When watching telly. Say eg. Hmm. Not sure who the murderer is. I think the person with a vagina who was in the background is pretty suspicious.

Women's sport mentioned? Say wow you must be very excited with the inclusive approach. Imagine if there's a person with a scrotum in Wimbledon women's next year!

I wouldn't bother though Personally.

I am very curious what kind of thoughts women think. Is there a woman brain that lets women know that they are women? How can they tell if they are right? I mean, anybody can say the words "I am a woman." But what kind of feelings would make you feel like you were a woman if you were not female?

It upsets me and he has no skin in the game.

Does he get upset about being wrong about other things, or if he thinks you've made him look stupid? He might not actually care about this but might be doubling down to save face.

Sounds to me like a lack of respect though, so make of that what you will. I've been astounded by the disrespect some women are happy to put up with from men, but I'm a lesbian and I don't really get the dynamic so feel free to ignore me.

Does he know that most transwomen keep their penises? How would he feel if his next date had a penis? Would they still be under the womanly umbrella, to him? Would he choose them as a partner to father a child with? If not, why not?

He won't have a definition. I've been waiting for an answer for two years (when I first started looking into this subject). He will be embarrassed because he can't answer.

Other questions he won't be able to answer:

1. What do all women and transwomen have in common with each other that they don't have in common with any men or transmen? (If he starts to talk about brains, get him to specify how the brains are different. Are all women bad at maths and all men bad at cooking, for instance)

1. Replace the word 'woman' with the word 'squigadoo' or any other nonsense word. Any definition he provides must make sense. So 'a squigadoo is someone who identifies as a squigadoo' still doesn't explain what a squigadoo' is. How can laws be based on such a nebulous definition?

1. Can women in Afghanistan break free from their oppression by 'identifying' as men? By not identifying as men are they complicit in their own subjugation?

1. What is 'gender identity' and how does it differ from gender stereotypes? How does a man know he feels like a woman (see question 1).

Tell him you would be more than happy to reassess your views on the subject if he can provide cogent answers on this subject. Until then, a woman is an adult human female (female being the type of human that typically produces ova etc).

Incidentally, if anyone reading can provide answers to these questions, I'd be happy to hear them!