AIBU to actually be starting to like the term cis?

[newnameday]

Hopefully this is allowed. Not bashing anyone.

I hated the term cis however this morning it hit me that we may be better embracing it if we can't eradicate it.

We have TWAW etc. But in the next however many years, we may find it easier, for example you're on a dating site "cis woman seeking cis man" therefore you will (hopefully) link with genetically male partners. Rather than "seeking a man" and you may possibly end up with a trans man. Again, no judgement or bashing, however I only ever wanted to be with someone who was genetically male, it's just my preference and I should be able to state this in a simple way.

So you would be able to request a man (if happy with cis or trans man) or woman, a cis man/woman and the subsections of lesbian or gay.

Prepared to be told IABU and sure that someone will likely be able to point out why this is bad. I'm not wanting this to be a bashing thread. I'm just starting to think the term may become useful in the not-too-distant future.

Also prepared this may end up deleted.

My original point was that the word “cis” is simply a descriptor to differentiate between trans and non-trans women. Sometimes it’s necessary to distinguish between these groups. In such contexts it is no more reasonable to be offended by the qualifier “cis” than it would be to be offended by the qualifier “trans”. I is not about prioritising one group over the other.

It is a descriptor that is unnecessary, not needed and not wanted or warranted. Women and transwomen performs the function required, transwomen require the 'trans' prefix as they are not biological born women if they were there would be no need to transition. Simple, straightforward, accurate and perfectly easy to understand.

The word woman as an adult human female is a word that is understood throughout the world and has been for millennia.

What you are doing, or trying to do, is to reduce women to a subset of their own sex, confuse and conflate sex and gender, confuse and conflate men who identify as women with women, the answer is NO, you don't get to decide to stick that descriptor on me or any other women, you do not have my consent to do so, don't refer to me anywhere as 'cis', I am not.

Is CIS an acronym?

I’m totally willing to engage in debate and don’t mind people disagreeing with me (although I do find the “ideas” and opinions expressed on this thread very unpleasant).

I find it more than unpleasant that someone (you) is attempting to force a descriptor on me that renders me a subset of my sex class, I find it fucking offensive.

What I am not ok with: being accused of misogyny (laughable- I’m an ardent feminist), being told I’m gaslighting people,

Feminism is for females, the clue is in the name. You are being misogynistic, you are attempting to gaslight.

Not while I breathe

@CatTerrier

Is CIS an acronym?

Not an acronym, a Latin prefix

www.etymonline.com/word/cis-

There is a long history of white, middle class women trying to police the boundaries of the category woman."

Surprised that you didn't say privileged white middle class women.

There are plenty of us who are from different religions, communities, ethnic backgrounds and class who are firm on keeping the boundaries. We may have different backgrounds but we are all women.

@newnameday

Seriously, though, there were actually no threats. There was a comment about seeing you in a non-literal sense, as in being aware of what they felt you were doing to women's rights. Nobody said they were watching you. And you know it.

You reached further than S Club 7 to make that a "threat".

I'm already in the naughty corner but I could liken this to someone who plays the victim a lot by twisting things to suit their narrative...

I found it creepy and threatening. But that was just one example of why I felt uncomfortable on this thread.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

There were no threats

And to be fair you kept popping back for a final last word so i doubt anyone knew you were actually gone

OK that made me laugh

Again, respectfully bowing out of the convo now.

(Annoying that the article is behind a paywall- it is v enlightening).

You reached further than S Club 7 to make that a "threat".

[quote Bizawit]@naunet no idea what that comment means.

For all those continuing to mock me after I left:
I’m totally willing to engage in debate and don’t mind people disagreeing with me (although I do find the “ideas” and opinions expressed on this thread very unpleasant).

What I am not ok with: being accused of misogyny (laughable- I’m an ardent feminist), being told I’m gaslighting people, having my intelligence compared to a dead dog, being mocked for saying I was writing a paper, having my words deliberately twisted, being subject to creepy threats, etc.

Also, I am perfectly able to provide definitions of sex, gender, woman, trans woman, gender diversity etc, for anyone who is sincerely interested and committed to having a meaningful and constructive debate. I write on these subjects professionally. There is no lack of clarity here.

My original point was that the word “cis” is simply a descriptor to differentiate between trans and non-trans women. Sometimes it’s necessary to distinguish between these groups. In such contexts it is no more reasonable to be offended by the qualifier “cis” than it would be to be offended by the qualifier “trans”. I is not about prioritising one group over the other.

I understand that some of you would like trans women to be excluded from the category “woman” altogether- this is the real reason you are offended by the term “cis”- you wish to be the only women spoken of. I do not personally find that acceptable. There is a long history of white, middle class women trying to police the boundaries of the category woman. This article analyses it well.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/terf-trans-women-britain.amp.html?fbclid=IwAR0xUOw2pSyvRdJqLioJawJ7ZIG9Fu6saQ7gqM34JjcVcX-Du5veNHBmbL8[/quote]
Please share your definitions.
On this thread or a new one, if you prefer.
Many people have been asking this for so long, and no one has been willing or able to provide it.

UGH. I hate ‘cis’. I am a woman, not a subset.
Biology exists. Anyone born male is a man. Anyone born female is a woman.

@FlyingOink

You reached further than S Club 7 to make that a "threat".

That was a good one!

Another thread has reminded me that a well-known transwoman (India Willoughby) has apparently claimed to be a Cis woman.

I understand that some of you would like trans women to be excluded from the category “woman” altogether

I understand that some of you would like seahorses to be excluded from the category "horses" altogether

Altogether!

How very rude!

The use of the word "transwoman" is fairly recent. "Trans woman" as two words more recent still. Half the population think it refers to women transitioning to become men.

Disregarding the hyperbolic use of "altogether", yes, transwomen should be excluded from the category of women, because they are only accepted as women by people who agree with gender identity both existing as something tangible and being more important than physical sex. Again, when the public is informed that the "trans umbrella", when referring to males, covers a demographic which mainly comprises of what people used to call "crossdressers", support for "transwomen" being women plummets.

This is why language is so important.

No way from me for so many reasons-

1. How to refer to women where you don't know their gender ID? You can only know someone's gender ID if they have disclosed it (to whoever needs to reference them, or the person referencing them has asked what it is).

Eg police looking for 3 women in connection with a road incident. Are they cis women or trans women? Are they non binary? Assumptions must not be made. And just realised. If the police know someone is non binary and they need to find them. How does the public request for info read?!

1. Loads of people have no internal gender ID. The assumption that the vast majority of people do and it's strongly felt is just that. An assumption. It's an extrapolation from the experience of trans people. Who by definition do. It's very flawed.

So for all the people who don't have an internal gender ID. What are they called? They're not trans women or cis women. If women means gender ID they aren't actually women at all. So what happens then?

1. Note that anyone trans activists don't like. Gets called cis irrespective of anything. Well except for old school transsexuals. Who get called truscum.

1. How does the news work?

When woman meant sex. Headlines like 'women and girls sexually coerced and abused by WHO staff during Ebola response'. (News today guardian there's a thread it's... Got no more words). Anyway. Under the cis trans women plan. I very much doubt the gender id of the victims is known. So what does the headline read? It can't say women and girls obv. (Or shouldn't, but even the super pro trans media still uses women meaning sex often). Anyway. Don't know gender. Is this when people with vaginas etc comes in? That's accurate, we're told that's why it's important language. So... 'people with vaginas sexually coerced and abused...'. Yes? There's no other logical option using the new language.

In short OP....

If cis and trans are used.

Then they only apply to those who identify as cis or trans.

And loads of people don't have a gender ID for many reasons. The big one being lots of people don't have an internal gender identity.
So they have no words.

Additional. I see it's about dating sites.

1. I can't imagine many blokes would use cis man.
2. And trans people would not do it either. Because TWAW and tmam. So they would not want to disclose that they were trans, well some might but in general I'd think not.

That's what TWAW is all about. Not using trans, just woman. (Or man).

The whole idea is unworkable in real life. Inconsistant and illogical.

And depends on a huge and I'm sure incorrect assumption.

I don't mean to derail but on this:

The use of the word "transwoman" is fairly recent. "Trans woman" as two words more recent still. Half the population think it refers to women transitioning to become men.

Is there an issue with whether or not transwoman is written as one word or two or even with a hyphen? I mean is it just down to someone's own grammatical style or can you be hauled into HR for making some huge transgression if used in the workplace?

The article linked by @bizawit uses the term TERF (a banned term on Mumsnet by the way). The term is intrinsically linked with violent sexual threats, as evidenced by the seemingly unending examples on this website - www.terfisaslur.com. It's a deeply unpleasant slur to use to back up an argument, particularly when accusing others on this board of making you feel 'unsafe'.

@VladmirsPoutine

I don't mean to derail but on this:

The use of the word "transwoman" is fairly recent. "Trans woman" as two words more recent still. Half the population think it refers to women transitioning to become men.

Is there an issue with whether or not transwoman is written as one word or two or even with a hyphen? I mean is it just down to someone's own grammatical style or can you be hauled into HR for making some huge transgression if used in the workplace?

I wonder the same! Although mine was just that my phone put the space in 😅

@FlyingOink @RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I thank you, I'm here all week. I was thinking of a "that's such a stretch..." comment but thought it would be too complicated or easily missed.

Good ol' S Club 🎶🌟

YABU

Way too much ground unwittingly ceded already.

Also I don't have a gender identity and 'cis' implies that I do.

I don't subscribe to this religion and I'm not going to adopt its tenets.

Appeasement never works. Nothing will ever be enough.

newname

Its one of my husbands favourite songs…its on his playlist 😀

I haven't rtft. But I think this is relevant:

Watch from about 49mins. Fascinating take on the word cis.
Genevieve Gluck describes how saying cis woman is putting the male into your brain before you can even talk about yourself. You are considering his feelings before yourself.
It puts the man between the woman and her own self