More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

[Cwenthryth]

I just saw this on Twitter

twitter.com/profalices/status/1442415750497509380?s=21

Between 2012 and 2018, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape in England and Wales were recorded as women.
www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/committees/current-and-previous-committees/session-6-citizen-participation-and-public-petitions-committee/correspondence/2021/pe1876_h-professor-alice-sullivan-submission-of-27-august-2021

I’m shocked at this statistic. Yes, a small proportion of these may be women charged with rape by joint enterprise. Prof Sullivan posted on Twitter she has requested to separate out those cases. But, as under the law in England and Wales, rape is a crime committed with a penis….. so these (alleged) rapists are “bodies with penises” being recorded as women in crime stats. So transwomen, right? So what does this mean….436 (alleged) transwomen rapists in 6 years? That is more than one a week. In England & Wales.

Have I misunderstood that? I’m really shocked.

I actually reported a few posts that appeared to meet the criteria for removal. Helpfully, the mods have contacted me each time to say why they aren't removing them and I've had follow up discussions.

In one instance, I had a post removed that called someone prejudiced - the reason given is that this was a "personal attack". So I reported a post that called me prejudiced and asked if they would remove that. They told me that was "acceptable" and wasn't a personal attack. Despite using exactly the same words that I did, it was treated differently.

@robinr66

I'm unable to address these points - Mumsnet mods have made clear directly to me that my account will be suspended if I continue do so or say anything further about transphobia.

You are unable to address any of the points because you’re not allowed to say anything about transphobia?

Surely you can address the points made with some kind of logical argument? It can’t be that you’ve been told not to post anything more on this topic, as you’ve continued to post on the thread.

Why have figures for this type of crime suddenly increased?

It would be an astonishing coincidence if the number of fat fingers increased at much the same time as the police stopped recording sex and started asking perpetrators for their gender identity, but I’m sure you have an explanation that makes perhaps sense.

And for good measure, even if it is “fat fingers” why would it be problematic to start recording both sex and gender identity? Surely if people want to be considered to be the opposite sex, they’d want to demonstrate that when it comes to crime statistics, that they behave more like the sex they want to be seen as than the sex they are?

I mean, yes. That is literally what I'm saying. Clearly I'm keen to continue this discussion but I can't because the mods have told me I'll be banned if I do.

I actually have done so anyway so expect my posts to disappear shortly...

Ok.

Scale - it is not that many (and fat fingers anyway)
Racist
Homophobic
sexism
and ignoring all the other rapes and crimes against women so are unable to multi task and be concerned on multiple fronts.

Any woman on this thread who states a concern as to why these numbers have increased and posits that one, amongst a number, reason may be due to males being included in the statistics (as Priti Patel believes as well) is all the above according to one poster.

Did I miss anything?

oh... yes... not nice and ignorant to the history of the oppression of women.

@robinr66

I mean, yes. That is literally what I'm saying. Clearly I'm keen to continue this discussion but I can't because the mods have told me I'll be banned if I do.

I actually have done so anyway so expect my posts to disappear shortly...

Can you honestly not discuss anything without calling people transphobic?

I find myself able to discuss things in here without resorting to personal attacks and name calling

Fuck me it’s tempting at times 😀

Rufus.

I think you're a transphobe for the same reason that I think people in the 60s were racist when they expressed concerns that the end of segregation would lead to a rise in sexual offences against women.

So you want to end segregation of males and females altogether?

Or do you want to retain the segregation and allow men to choose freely which space they use, despite the obvious inequality between the groups?

Why, when I search this forum (a feminist forum, mind) is rapeonlymentioned in the context of trans women? And mentioned dozens and dozens of times a day?

I quick search proves this claim is not true robin

Why have figures for this type of crime suddenly increased?

It would be an astonishing coincidence if the number of fat fingers increased at much the same time as the police stopped recording sex and started asking perpetrators for their gender identity, but I’m sure you have an explanation that makes perhaps sense.

The numbers of reported rapes has more than doubled over the same period. As a proportion of total recorded rapes, the percentage of cases falling into this category has dropped, not increased. They're less likely, not more.

Also worth noting, Bonsai, that a small group of posters insisted that posts discussing this topic were corralled into this board and separated from the other feminist 'chat'.

Which is why you will find that blow me down, all the posts related to 'gender' are on teh gender board. Amazing.

God its hard sometimes arabella 😀

When i get met at the pearly gates and St Peter shows me a list of the awful things ive said

I’ll be like ‘peter…mate….what about all the stuff I DIDNT say’

I feckon I’ll be straight in

I don't understand what you've written here. Do you want to have another crack?

@robinr66

Again, I'm very limited in terms of what I can say here. But, doing my level best to stay on the acceptable side of the line as set out by the mods, I believe I have responded in exactly in the same way in terms of content, tone and politeness as other posters have shown me.

However, my posts have been removed and I've been warned with the ban-hammer. Others have not.

I have specifically flagged multiple posts that breach Mumsnet T&cs - in every case, far more egregiously than even the most negative interpretation of what I've said. In some case, these posts are so extreme that they likely cross the threshold into criminal offences.

Mods have told me that these posts are acceptable and will not be removed.

It's tough to escape the conclusion that what is allowed to stay up vs not is not the result of a fairly and consistently applied content policy but rather is based on whether the underlying views themselves are acceptable.

Please do show us the posts that are "so extreme that they likely cross the threshold into criminal offense". You can do so without being modded provided you just copy the posts.

@robinr66

I don't understand what you've written here. Do you want to have another crack?

Who are you talking to?

And what *alfonso’ said

The numbers of reported rapes has more than doubled over the same period. As a proportion of total recorded rapes, the percentage of cases falling into this category has dropped, not increased. They're less likely, not more.

We’re not discussing reported rapes, we’re discussing rape convictions. Does your theory still hold if you compare like with like?

Or do you want to retain the segregation and allow men to choose freely which space they use, despite the obvious inequality between the groups?

Personally, I think the world would be a much better place if gender barriers were removed entirely but I think your mask has slipped a little here:

Or do you want to retain the segregation and allow men to choose freely which space they use, despite the obvious inequality between the groups?

Trans women are women. Allowing a trans woman to use a female toilet isn't allowing a man to use it - it's allowing a woman to use it.

The alternative is that you're permitted to define who other people are allowed to be, based on what you think is acceptable. You'd rightly tell me to sod off if I tried to tell a lesbian they're not really a lesbian because I don't believe in them, right?

@AnyOldPrion

I think you're a transphobe for the same reason that I think people in the 60s were racist when they expressed concerns that the end of segregation would lead to a rise in sexual offences against women.

So you want to end segregation of males and females altogether?

Or do you want to retain the segregation and allow men to choose freely which space they use, despite the obvious inequality between the groups?

I can never understand why the racist argument is brought into this.

Sometimes segregation IS important, to right historic inequalities or protect the vulnerable for instance.

A parallel analogy would need to be when the segregation is of benefit to the more vulnerable class. Women are not the whites in a racial analogy. A parallel analogy would be closer to white people identifying as black in order to claim a scholarship only open to people of colour.

Lesbians exist

Transpeople exist

Fact

Personally, I think the world would be a much better place if gender barriers were removed entirely but I think your mask has slipped a little here:

Gender barriers yes however do you believe that sex segregation should be abolished?

Trans womenarewomen. Allowing a trans woman to use a female toilet isn't allowing a man to use it - it's allowing a woman to use it.

That is your belief and not one that must be shared by everyone.
It is allowing a male to use the female toilet is it not?

The proportion of rape allegations to convictions has fallen during the same period.

Also, the way that rape convictions were counted changed in 2016. The data itself explicitly highlights that you cannot compare years and cannot draw any conclusions about trends.

Personally, I think the world would be a much better place if gender barriers were removed entirely but I think your mask has slipped a little here:

There we go, then. You think that there should be no circumstances in which women should be allowed to say 'no, thank you' to males. Clear.

Trans women are women.

How are they? What does a transwoman share with a woman?

Well now Arabella we can’t have men being sad now can we

And trans women are not women, they were born male otherwise what are they transitioning from?

Personally, I think the world would be a much better place if gender barriers were removed entirely but I think your mask has slipped a little here:

What is that AnyOld Prion is masking in your opinion?

In your opinion, transitioned males are women, but that is not everyone's opinion and you cannot police people's opinion to suit your own belief.

Allowing a trans woman to use a female toilet isn't allowing a man to use it - it's allowing a woman to use it.

It is allowing a male to use it. And in fact, women can state that they find male's in female single sex spaces to be distressing without it being categorised as transphobia. You might not like this, but it is the truth and even the EHRC has stated that women can discuss and highlight areas where conflicts in rights of both groups arise.

There is a reason male's are segregated from female single sex spaces and partly it is reflected in crime statistics. Crime statistics that if they start to be entangled by inclusion of males in female statistics will lead to many inaccuracies and false policy changes. And will be impossible to disentangle.

I get it. It is infuriating that women disagree with you.