Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

More than one “woman” a week prosecuted for rape?!?!

492 replies

Cwenthryth · 27/09/2021 23:07

I just saw this on Twitter

twitter.com/profalices/status/1442415750497509380?s=21

Between 2012 and 2018, 436 individuals prosecuted for rape in England and Wales were recorded as women.
www.parliament.scot/chamber-and-committees/committees/current-and-previous-committees/session-6-citizen-participation-and-public-petitions-committee/correspondence/2021/pe1876_h-professor-alice-sullivan-submission-of-27-august-2021

I’m shocked at this statistic. Yes, a small proportion of these may be women charged with rape by joint enterprise. Prof Sullivan posted on Twitter she has requested to separate out those cases. But, as under the law in England and Wales, rape is a crime committed with a penis….. so these (alleged) rapists are “bodies with penises” being recorded as women in crime stats. So transwomen, right? So what does this mean….436 (alleged) transwomen rapists in 6 years? That is more than one a week. In England & Wales.

Have I misunderstood that? I’m really shocked.

OP posts:
robinr66 · 27/10/2021 14:52

You're not following. I'm not being threatened with suspension for insulting anyone or anything like that, not that I have done that anyway.

It's the substance that are the issue - I've been specifically barred from making certain points on this subject.

timeisnotaline · 27/10/2021 14:53

I'd like to my previous posts on the data issue to stay up for context and so don't want them to be removed under the pretext of my account being suspended for comments elsewhere.
I’m happy for this to happen. I’m not sure it will have the effect you think it will though!

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 14:56

They would have told you, as they have been telling us for years, that you cannot make negative generalisations about a group of people

I certainly can't, that's for sure!

You guys, on the other hand...

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 14:57

See... there you go again...

You are making inferences about posters on this thread.

Anyway, back to the thread at hand.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 15:01

@Itsanewdah

However, even after being on mumsnet i’m shocked how quickly people jump to conclusions. The trans population is absolutely tiny. You can’t just identify as female spur of the moment for a criminal case. Get your facts together people, use your common sense and please keep in mind that there are awful people in all walks of life.
Then when did Jessica Brennan start identifying as a woman? Because it wasn't at the time of the offences.

extract

A transgender woman who committed a string of sexual assaults on girls as young as four over a 17-year period has been jailed for 22 years.

Jessica Brennan, known as Allan Brennan at the time of the offences, groomed then sexually abused the four children between1998 and 2016.

The 54-year-old tried to rape one of the children and another girl was subjected to systematic abuse over the course of a decade, which involved 'multiple' incidents.

York Crown Court heard the victims, who cannot be named for legal reasons, were haunted by the abuse and their lives had been 'ruined' by the paedophile.

Brennan, from Harrogate, North Yorkshire, was charged with 16 separate offences including sexual assault of a child, indecent assault, sexual activity with a child and one count of attempted rape of a girl under 13.

The Ministry of Justice would not reveal which prison Brennan will be sent to following her sentencing, though she was in male-only HMP Hull prior to her court appearance.

Under UK law, transgender people are initially sent to prisons based on their legal status - but can request a transfer to another prison.

From: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9596003/Transgender-woman-sexually-abused-girls-young-four-jailed-22-years.html

Those offences continued up until 2016. And then suddenly, facing court, a 54 year old discovers that they're trans

aliasundercover · 27/10/2021 15:04

I se your post where you were rude to me because I’d made an error (which I accepted and apologised for) has been removed. That’s probably the sort of stuff you’ve been asked not to say.

I’d rather it had been left up - it said more about you than it did about me.

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 15:09

I've no idea which post you're referring to - I don't believe I was rude to anyone.

timeisnotaline · 27/10/2021 15:11

@Itsanewdah this absolutely happens regularly. It should bother trans people as I can’t be the only one who is skeptical about the timing of their sudden discovery they are trans mid conviction given the relative amenity of a women’s prison vs a men’s prison. If I were trans I’d suspect some of these men are not genuinely trans, just opportunistic men, and be pissed off they are doing genuinely trans people no favours at app by giving them a bad name.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/10/2021 15:13

Meanwhile this individual seems to have transitioned post-trial.

extract from the BBC, November 2012

A man who raped a 12-year-old girl from Hampshire after posing online as a teenage girl, has been jailed for 14 years and four months.

Gary Cooper, 47, pleaded guilty at Winchester Crown Court to the sexual grooming and rape of the girl.

Cooper, of Windsor Drive, Hertford, fabricated a profile in a social network site in which he purported to be a 15-year-old girl called Chantelle.

Passing sentence, the judge called Cooper "highly manipulative".

The court heard how Cooper had used the online site to meet his victim in July 2011 and then took her to Hertfordshire, via Essex, where he raped her.

After being reported missing, the girl was found by Hertfordshire Police the following morning.

A police investigation uncovered a series of offences against the 12-year-old and another girl to which Cooper pleaded guilty.

Det Insp Dave Storey, of Hampshire Constabulary, said: "This incident highlights the ease with which online paedophiles can use social networking sites to communicate with children and parents should be mindful of who their children are communicating with and any arrangements that are made following contact."
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-20330163

So where is Cooper now?

Among the prisoners at Littlehey jail in Cambridgeshire is an inmate called Carrie Cooper. In a previous life on the outside, Carrie Cooper was delivery driver Gary Cooper, a paedophile whose crimes included the rape and abduction of a young girl.

But Cooper is serving her sentence, totalling more than 20 years, as a woman after changing her identity following her imprisonment in 2011.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7287343/PAUL-BRACCHI-1-50-inmates-male-prisons-claim-transgender.html

Cooper didn't seem to have dysphoria with that penis when raping that 12 year old girl.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 15:26

@robinr66

I've no idea which post you're referring to - I don't believe I was rude to anyone.
The probem is usually with things we believe @robinr66

YOU believe you were not rude.

The MNers you commented upon, or others reading your comments think you were

MNHQ agreed with those who reported your posts that inclued personal, or generalised, unpleasantness.

You can of course discuss the topic we are all here discussing. If your understanding was correctthen we would all have been deleted, the thread removed, the forum zapped.

But here we all are, discussing the same topic as you, ot being deleted and sent messages explaining our trangressions.

So I believe you must have misunderstood what MNHQ told you! about the posts that were deleted!

Simples.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 15:30

@Itsanewdah I am hoping you are reading the links out up for you. I would be very interested to hear what you think now you can see that your assumption was seemingly incorrect.

There is a lot more oft discussed stuff about the female estate, MoJ etc. If you are interested you only have to ask. Most of it is offical stats, MoJ publications, court cases etc. No opinions, just facts.

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 15:39

Again, I'm very limited in terms of what I can say here. But, doing my level best to stay on the acceptable side of the line as set out by the mods, I believe I have responded in exactly in the same way in terms of content, tone and politeness as other posters have shown me.

However, my posts have been removed and I've been warned with the ban-hammer. Others have not.

I have specifically flagged multiple posts that breach Mumsnet T&cs - in every case, far more egregiously than even the most negative interpretation of what I've said. In some case, these posts are so extreme that they likely cross the threshold into criminal offences.

Mods have told me that these posts are acceptable and will not be removed.

It's tough to escape the conclusion that what is allowed to stay up vs not is not the result of a fairly and consistently applied content policy but rather is based on whether the underlying views themselves are acceptable.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 27/10/2021 15:49

Oh stop it!

Many of us have all had warnings, deletions, bans etc. Some may even have occurred because of your reporting, who knows?

We all know what the emails read like.

The only limitation that has been placed upon you is one of being polite!

You have already said that one specific post that others, including MNHQ and the person it was about, understood to be rude, against T+Cs, was in your opinion not rude. It is your understanding that is at odds with the T+Cs.

WHat you see as egregious is probably soemthing you disagree witrh stated quite balldy, but not personally. That is allowed.

And if you are trying to assert that we GC posters of MN reports lots and lots of TRA style posts you are definitely rowing against the tide. Many of us post that we would not want posts like your deleted, as was said about on of the posts here. We tell MNHQ that and they will often leave such stuff standing, unless others report it in numbers.

Yet we, the regular GC posters get zapped on a fairly regular basis, often (according to MNHQ in past explanatins) by readers who are not site members. Those we call The Monitors, sone of whom relish the fac that the disrupt, collect such posts and Twatter the living daylights out of them!

So maybe believe that we know you are over egging that paricualr pudding. You'll not find much sympathy for taking that tack here - though I do undertsand it will read really well when Twattered!

Maybe start again - honest discourse!!

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 15:51

@Helleofabore

To be clear for robinr, these are from your posts, yes?

A secret transgender agenda to manipulate crime stats to do....what, exactly?

Personally, I'd be more bothered by the fact that the CPS only prosecute 1 in 50 recorded rapes. You know, actual problems? With real impacts on women?

But then I guess some people are just really really desperate to find a stick to beat someone with.

Then

Also I think you need to put your tin foil hat back on. The CPS will have data policies that are either public or FOI-able. Wildly claiming, with no dviz evidence at all, that this is a secret trans conspiracy to oppress women by...reducing the number of male rapes by 3% a year just make you sound like a loon.

then

You've found something that you think supports your prejudice and are proudly declaring this as evidence of secret trans conspiracies...

Then calling someone a transphobe directly implying that anyone else disagreeing with you is also a transphobe.

Do you mean it spoiled your planned hate party?

I mean, if you cannot see your own very clear prejudice against people, from looking at the user names the majority are regular posters who are women, who are pointing out that your breezy 'fat finger' reason for the stats jumping from a range of 51-65 over 6 periods tracking quite consistently up but in single digit increases, to 83, an increase in 19 defendants in the period to the end of Mar 2018, then you perhaps need to understand the definition of prejudicial behaviour and making quite rash generalisations about a group on MN.

So, I think this was pretty clear robin.

And yes, you did in fact call me a 'transphobe'. I have the post on my phone.

I think perhaps you have a very different interpretation of 'extreme' and other terms that you have thrown around to many other people. No one has called you names, no one has expressed transphobic views (unless you subscribe to the extreme activist style guide of transphobia).

BatmansBat · 27/10/2021 15:57

I think MNHQ are trying very hard to let people put their views across.

Of course, there are some views that you may not be allowed to express. A misogynist may think that all women are worthless and stupid. And may argue this point and also that a certain poster was an example of the general inferiority of women. This post would probably be taken down. As would racist, homophobic and transphobic posts.

You also cannot blanket accuse anyone who disagrees with you of racism, homophobia, misogyny, transphobia just to get the discussion shut down.

Most women here are very keen to discuss specific points. I believe many posters here are academics so detailed data processing and problem with statistics can be discussed in depth.

Hope this helps.

Cailleach1 · 27/10/2021 16:01

Yes, those links are interesting. What is happening is fairly incredible, isn't it? And women are being adversely impacted in real life. Real life damaging consequences for women as a result of ideas that would have better remained at the theoretical level in the definitely not hallowed confines of a social science/ Arts department.

BatmansBat · 27/10/2021 16:07

Wow Helleofabore, those posts….

They are not very nice posts are they?

They are accusing posters of all sorts without a shred of evidence.

They seem to also seem to say that posters have said all sorts of things they haven’t Confused.

I would be very cross with my 12 year old if they did that. And tell her off.

I think most posters here would be open to a detailed data discussion though. And factual points.

And it seems that we need a lot more data on this issue. And that we need to record both sex and gender. This would enable us to separate into sub categories of biological men and biological women. It would also enable us to investigate whether it is a problem with transwomen committing rape and if this is skewing the statistics. Or if it isn’t a problem. We just would like to know.

jellyfrizz · 27/10/2021 16:11

[quote timeisnotaline]@Itsanewdah this absolutely happens regularly. It should bother trans people as I can’t be the only one who is skeptical about the timing of their sudden discovery they are trans mid conviction given the relative amenity of a women’s prison vs a men’s prison. If I were trans I’d suspect some of these men are not genuinely trans, just opportunistic men, and be pissed off they are doing genuinely trans people no favours at app by giving them a bad name.[/quote]
^^This. I don't believe that anyone here thinks that 'genuine' trans women are responsible for all these rapes.

The problem is that there is no definition of trans woman beyond someone saying they are a trans woman. Given that sex offenders are so hated in male prisons that they are usually placed in a separate wing for their own protection, I can't see why rapists wouldn't identify as trans women. There are no downsides.

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 16:12

@robinr66

Please, tell me what my intention is. I assume you think its to engage in some kind of trans AstroTurfing, courtesy of my secret Trans United Nations World Government paymasters?
No. This completely crazy thought did not cross my mind at all. I have no idea who your 'paymasters' are, I asked about your direct experience with this data set that you were confident to discount as you did.

I was clear. Your intention seemed to be to minimise the increase as a 'fat fingered' admin error.

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 16:12

I think most posters here would be open to a detailed data discussion though. And factual points.

yes please.

AnyOldPrion · 27/10/2021 16:22

@Ozanj

If you want to see the rapes that women commit you need to look up sexual assault by penetration or anything else. There are a lot of them but they rarely get to the prosecution stage unless they were particularly violent or involved multiple victims. I have friends who work in prisons and according to them women do get away with this. One friend works with underaged victims of lesbian assaults and said the numbers of attacks seem to be rising.
Ah yes, but how many of the lesbians were women? I believe women are now sometimes outnumbered on lesbian dating sites.
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 16:28

@robinr66

>They would have told you, as they have been telling us for years, that you cannot make negative generalisations about a group of people

I certainly can't, that's for sure!

You guys, on the other hand...

We are deleted if we make generalisations

They aren’t picking on you

They have stricter rules on this board for everyone

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 16:33

It's tough to escape the conclusion that what is allowed to stay up vs not is not the result of a fairly and consistently applied content policy but rather is based on whether the underlying views themselves are acceptable

Rubbish

Many pro women posters have been banned from Mumsnet

robinr66 · 27/10/2021 16:39

I know I called you a transphobe. I'd love to expand on why I said and why it is critically important to say so - but I can't, because it will lead to my account being suspended.

I've just had a discussion with a mod they told me it's acceptable for others to call me prejudiced but I'm not allowed to say that about others. Not even kidding - you're allowed to tell me I'm prejudiced and your comments doing so will not be removed. But I'm not allowed to say the same to you. Any comment that does so will be removed and I'll be banned.

So, what can I say? Nothing at all, which I presume is their ntent.

Actually, sod it! [Mods - this is not a personal attack but an explanation of why I said I thought this poster was a transphobe and prejudiced. I'm trying to explain what I meant, not denigrate anyone].

I think you're a transphobe for the same reason that I think people in the 60s were racist when they expressed concerns that the end of segregation would lead to a rise in sexual offences against women. These were the same people lynching black men 30 years earlier for talking to a white woman. Obviously, times had changed and it wasn't politically acceptable to claim that black people weren't human and the races should be kept separate. But they had to find some way of opposing desegregation. So they came up with an alternative spin - it's nothing to do with skin colour and everything to do with "protecting woman".

It was exactly the same with gay people in the military. It was no longer acceptable to be homophobic and claim it was a mental defect so the argument shifted to "unit cohesion".

Same with women in the military - it's not acceptable any more to say that women are inferior to men. So you make the argument that it's about "strength and personal safety".

My point is that prejudice doesn't disappear simply because it becomes socially unacceptable. It mutates into more acceptable forms.

In your case, you know full well you can't be all "i hate the wierdo trannies!!" because it's not 1994 and you understand that this is unacceptable.

So you frame your prejudice another way. You've got no problems with trans women, no siree. It's entirely to do with the "safety of women." Because that is acceptable.

But, you might say, I genuinely am only concerned with the safety of women!

To which the response would be then why this issue? Why is the issue so important to you?

Even if you're 100% correct and all trans women are secretly men looking to get unrestricted access to women's prisons, it's a miniscule issue compared with other problems facing women. Even if you're correct that every single one of these 436 cases is as you say, there were 400,000 reported rapes in the same period. So these cases would represent 0.1% of rapes in this period. Why are you so bothered about these and not the 99.9% of other rapes? Why, when I search this forum (a feminist forum, mind) is rape only mentioned in the context of trans women? And mentioned dozens and dozens of times a day?

I know it's not nice to be confronted with the fact of your prejudice. We all rationally understand that prejudice is wrong and we want to think of ourselves as fair and reasonable people. But being unable to acknowledge and confront your own prejudice means you can never tackle it or. move beyond it.

I also think that there's a stance of "I'm a woman, a a member of historically oppressed group of people and so I could never oppress anyone myself". Which is just not how it works.

So, yeah, that's my explanation of why I think you're prejudiced.

Beowulfa · 27/10/2021 16:39

Is this a cunning new line of argument: "look, I can't continue the debate with my diamond-edged logic and granite statistics because Mumsnet says I can't. So you'll just have to take my word that I've won the argument."

Swipe left for the next trending thread