Starker: Not only women have a cervix

[WildRunner]

This has made me cross.

Labour conference: Not right to say only women have a cervix, says Starmer www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58698406

I'm about to go for my smear test. Any man who feels like a woman is welcome to have a speculum inserted into his non-existent cervix - as long as it isn't at the expense of appointments for biological women.

An individual with a cervix is exclusive of half the population.
We should be more inclusive I think.

We should talk about individuals.
All individuals should have access to the smear test. Those who don't need it should be given a participation sticker so they don't feel bad about being left out...

I mean being inclusive is the more important thing here right? Way more important than accuracy and clarity surely? Especially in the medical field...

I mean heart attacks in individuals with cervix do present different from the other individuals but if we said we need to do research on heart attacks in individuals with a cervix we might miss important information on the left out individuals so we should just do research on individuals.

There! That cleared things right up.

Only women have can have a cervix - this is a biological fact. Bizarre that people are trying to pretend otherwise when this is available information for basic science textbook.

But if you believe TWAW how can you justify excluding them from women-only spaces? Your arguments aren't coherent.

And I'm not sure you understand the English language if you think saying "women and trans men" is a way of suggesting that trans men are women.

“which is why suicide in the trans community is so high.”

But it isn’t. The Samaritans have disagreed with that. Where is your evidence as you really shouldn’t be making those kind of statements about suicide.

Oh I'm sure the TRAs will be coming for the science textbooks next. Trying to erase the fact of XX and XY chromosomes because its not "inclusive".

“Worth noting that the evidence of violence by trans women in women's spaces is far less than the evidence of violence against trans women in men's spaces.”

Again: YES. You’re right. The real problem is male violence. Go fix that first and then come back to us and talk cervices once you’ve done it.

I'm not remotely alienated by the term 'individuals with a cervix' because I am an individual with a cervix.

How does one know one is an individual with a cervix ?
It might be important to know for cervical cancer screening.

Also children may or may not have a cervix, I don't think they need to be screened, but how would one know ?

“”Worth noting that the evidence of violence by trans women in women's spaces is far less than the evidence of violence against trans women in men's spaces. “”

Of course it is as 98% of violence is committed by men. But yet again you want women to roll over and give up their safe spaces because men are violent. Why not deal with the male violence issue instead.

Stats have also shown that transwomen violence is at exactly the same rate as male violence. So why would women want trans women or males in their safe spaces?

This is not solved by using the phrase 'women and trans men' it's just another way of suggesting trans men are women which they aren't

If I said 'cats and dogs are common household pets' I wouldn't be saying dogs ARE cats.

“”This is not solved by using the phrase 'women and trans men' it's just another way of suggesting trans men are women which they aren't””

I can catch the bus and train to work. The train isn’t another way of saying bus. The bus is very different.

Women only spaces is a different argument, just because I agree with inclusive language doesn't mean I think transgender men should be allowed in traditionally women only spaces. This should be looked at in a case by case basis for the safety of women and trans women.

I think you're getting mixed up here. Nobody is saying women and transwomen are in danger of violence from transmen. It's the ones born male who present the problem.

Also in this sentence you say 'women and transwomen'. But then you say later in your post you can't say 'women and transmen', in reference to cervical screening, although these are the two groups that need it.
I genuinely don't understand.

If you don't want trans women in your women's spaces how do you feel about trans men being forced to stay in women's spaces.

When an individual who looks and sounds like a man cannot go into men's spaces and therefore has to be in women's spaces would you have a problem with this? Would they have to drop trow and prove they have the anatomy you associate with women. Or how about genetic testing results to prove what chromosomes they have?

I foresee problems with this solution too.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=6Avcp-e4bOs

If you want a trans voice and opinion feel free to watch a trans mans response to JKR.

What @ozzyteabiscuitbsaid: I'm not remotely alienated by the term 'individuals with a cervix' because I am an individual with a cervix. It's inclusive.

There’s fucking loads of stuff to be upset/worried/dispirited about right now. This isn’t one of them.

Its impossible to understand an incoherent and self-contradictory ideology. That's why most posters arguing TWAW disappear (or call bigot) when asked intelligent questions.

I tried to watch that YouTube video but being told that I'm not allowed to be offended at being called a cis woman and that TWAW from the person who is allegedly putting forward the gender critical argument meant I could no longer take the rest of it seriously. I tried, I really did.

There’s fucking loads of stuff to be upset/worried/dispirited about right now. This isn’t one of them.

Getting cancer is pretty worrying, but luckily there is a screening programme freely available which helps to prevent deaths.

Again I ask, how does one know one has a cervix ?

If you don't want trans women in your women's spaces how do you feel about trans men being forced to stay in women's spaces.

Why would they be forced to stay in women's spaces?

It's like getting two labour supporters to give you an objective review of politics while one gives the Labour standpoint and the other gives the what-Labour-wants-you-to-think-the-Conservative-standpoint-is-while-totally-misrepresenting-it. If that's where your views on these issues comes from I totally understand why your arguments are so incoherent now.

@DaisiesandButtercups

Thank you for your wisdom and reassurance ozzyteabiscuit. Now I have been informed that inclusivity doesn’t affect me at all I will stop speaking and stop thinking and just recite all the appropriate mantras as and when required in order to make a huge difference to the lives of transgender individuals. I now know that my opinions are not important, I am not important, women are not important, children are not important. Thanks to you I finally understand that the only important thing is the lives of trans individuals. Nothing else and no one else matters. Everyone and everything should be sacrificed to make a difference to the lives of trans individuals. Have I understood you correctly?

I believe you nailed it Daisies.

That a person lecturing women that the language used to describe women and to communicate to women cannot see the absolute hypocrisy in their own words is pretty clear.

And that a woman who doesn’t understand they have cervix (as the survey done recently proved. Over 50% wasn’t it?) due to language or whatever reason is nowhere near as important as one who doesn’t identify as a ‘woman’ is perfectly clear. That those women are forgotten doesn’t even register to posters keen on shaming and admonishing others.

@Kittii

I tried to watch that YouTube video but being told that I'm not allowed to be offended at being called a cis woman and that TWAW from the person who is allegedly putting forward the gender critical argument meant I could no longer take the rest of it seriously. I tried, I really did.

I downloaded the book suggested about why some women are offended by trans inclusive language and I will read it.

Maybe another day you will get to the end of the video, because really it's not my opinion that matters, it's those who are directly affected by the arguments above.

ozzyteabiscuit

I'm not remotely alienated by the term 'individuals with a cervix' because I am an individual with a cervix. It's inclusive.

How do you know you're an individual with a cervix? I assume at some point in your life you were taught that you were female and that females have a cervix.
How will future generations of females know if the words female and male no longer have meaning?

I also assume you either have English as a first language and/or an education at a level that means you understand what "individual with a cervix means". What about the ESOL students I used to teach? They knew they were women. They knew who men were (for cultural reasons they weren't allowed in the classes.) I can't imagine how long it would have taken to teach them this new complex language. Rather than "women have to go to the drs for smear tests/mammograms".

Maybe look outside your own privileged bubble.

@ozzyteabiscuit I'm glad that you have downloaded the book and will read it. I applaud for you being intellectually honest enough to read about the other side of the argument. I'm fully supportive of transgender people living their lives however they want to but I won't buy into the Emperor's new clothes argument that a man can magically change into a woman just by saying that he feels like one (let alone the people like Pip Bunce who apparently change between being a man and a woman day by day). It's an incoherent, dangerous and illogical fallacy that has real consequences for hard-won women's rights, especially the most vulnerable women in society.

How do you know you're an individual with a cervix?

This is a key point.
I have two children, how do I do which one has a cervix?
Shall I send them both off for an internal scan or do you have any other hand hints for identifying which one might possess this body part?

I can reliably tell you that 12 year olds do not know they have a cervix in my family.

I can also reliably tell you when my child was 9 and their friends started their periods early, they had no idea what the word menstruator/menstruation meant.

But of course, these girls don’t count at all.

Nothing to see here… you girls are not important enough to make sure language being used communicates to the maximum of people needing the information.

Oh! And as a parent of said child, obviously I am not affected either.

Nothing to see here….

[quote HereticFanjo]@ozzyteabiscuit - good news! Trans by Helen Joyce is on offer on Kindle for 99p today. If you're interested in finding out why this kind of language makes women uneasy, have a read. Excellent book, bargain price, one day only![/quote]
Thanks for this info - just bought myself a copy!