My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

@FreshFancyFrogglette

So someone who has had their penis amputated because of an accident is a female? What about someone whose Horne profile indicates they are male but they have a vagina? What do you mean human hermaphrodites don't exist? There are plenty of individuals are display both male and female biological attributes. It's not an exact cut off the way u are describing. There are men who don't have penises for whatever reason (genetics, accidents, injury, etc). The statement that men have penises, woman have vaginas, is not actually factually correct in 100% of cases.

1 No

2 There are many sources of information about variations of sexual development (also known as differences of sexual development). There are many, many threads on this board but I'd recommend the patient organisations or societies initially.

3 Human hermaphrodites don't exist. You're welcome to explore Google Scholar and PubMed on this issue. I refer you to #2 again.

4 Yes. I fail to follow your thinking for the rest.

5 Not everybody has 2 legs. Virtually 100% of the time, humans are bipedal. This is a helpful analogy that might cast some light on your understanding of numbers here.

@FreshFancyFrogglette and anyway... I've posted about a young boy who's still learning in an age appropriate way about all this stuff. I've asked for advice based on a rude exchange in a classroom. I've not asked for a discussion about hermaphrodites..

OK, instead of hermaphrodites, use the term intersex. I refer to humans with ambiguous sex! They exist. Sorry that's inconvenient.
The statement men have pneises, woman have vaginas is wrong.
As you've just proven by saying that a man who lost their penis is still a man! I can't believe I even have to type that tbh...

Don't teach him outdated facts then. He's perfectly old enough to understand that sex involves more than penises and vaginas....

The statement men have pneises, woman have vaginas is wrong.

It is, yes.

Fresh, can I ask what brought you to Feminist Chat?

As you've just proven by saying that a man who lost their penis is still a man! I can't believe I even have to type that tbh..

I don’t think this is the gotcha you seem to think it is.

@FreshFancyFroglette
Biology and Scientific facts are not outdated, even when you try and twist them to fit your frankly weird argument.

I'm a third wave Feminist. What I learnt last year in gender studies, is completely different to the ideas most of mumsnet were taught 20 years ago.
Things move on. It's no longer men vs women.
To me sex is not the dichotomous entity we used to think it was. Obviously that's very problematic for second wave feminism, which relies on that distinction in order to make its argument.
Its still useful, but things have evolved.

Its male vs female

Whatever people identify as it still boils down to male and female

Biology and science evolve all the time! We are constantly learning new things about what we know.

Even if I accepted that male and female were the only options, and no one was intersex (which I don't). I would still argue that male and female aren't purely defined by the existence or absence of a penis.

@ArabellaScott

Fresh, can I ask what brought you to Feminist Chat?

Likewise consumed with curiosity.

I should also add that I stick by my previous answers to F3 and although I should be accustomed to it by now I am more than a little disappointed that the usual signposts to decent sources of information have been ignored.

FFF - the term intersex is deprecated as you would know if you had had the courtesy to read up on the matter. It seems, however, as if your preference is to produce opinion that has no grounding in science.

Having made extraordinary claims, it is your responsibility to substantiate them with evidence.

People who are intersex are male or female

There is no third sex

Gosh yet another person on this thread to ignore. Stop embarrassing yourself @FreshFancyFrogglette , thank god this is anonymous eh?

Science may evolve all the time but not in the way you clearly believe

Having made extraordinary claims, it is your responsibility to substantiate them with evidence

Judging by the posts so far I’m not sure that evidence wise today is your day embarrassing

What I learnt last year in gender studies
Bless.

This thread has made me so so sad! I have a child that is living non binary at the moment but are much happier being 'boy' (born girl). I'd hate it if OPs son behaved like this. It's just awful towards a child that is potentially torn with their own emotions and just finding themselves and understanding what makes them happy. Why can't you just be happy that they're happy. I'm not surprised the school have come down heavy on this kind of behaviour. The poor children that are so so torn deserve the support of their peers and teachers.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Having made extraordinary claims, it is your responsibility to substantiate them with evidence

Judging by the posts so far I’m not sure that evidence wise today is your day embarrassing

True.

What I learnt last year in gender studies

I have a sinking feeling that I'm getting an insight into the level of education certain police officers have had that imbues them with so much confidence that they're ready to go out and 'check people's thinking'.

Dear heavens. Is this what so many interns have been learning? What does our future hold for us?

I would put money on the fact I've read more on the subject than most people.
Men have penises, women have vaginas, is a crap way to teach biological sex to children.
Thats it. I've argued this for years on here, but it's the only place online I seem to have to.
Most things on here I agree with, but the refusal to acknowledge the last 10 years worth of development in gender studies really irks me.

I think you will be embarrassed in time, if the penny ever drops. It doesn't matter to me personally. As I said, you will be on the wrong side of history.

@Looneytune253 did you take the time to read my posts? Actually read them and understand what I'm saying?

He has been told he has to be respectful of peoples choices. Nowhere on this thread have I deviated from that. I've also added that I won't have him goading ANYONE and that I support a trans child having an immediate point of contact

Read again maybe?

I don't see why I should be embarrassed to point out that not all men have penises. It's a fact.

@FreshFancyFrogglette

I think you will be embarrassed in time, if the penny ever drops. It doesn't matter to me personally. As I said, you will be on the wrong side of history.

You were asked for evidence

Do you have any?

Im going with no

But i think embarrassing may be a wee bit hopeful