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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

351 replies

PippaOwl · 25/09/2021 14:32

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

OP posts:
FreshFancyFrogglette · 26/09/2021 21:24

You said in your op, I've always taught him that men have penises, women have vaginas, that statement is wrong. That is what I have issue with.

trumpisagit · 26/09/2021 21:26

Fff
That is not the point, or purpose of this thread.

PippaOwl · 26/09/2021 21:30

@FreshFancyFrogglette honestly, any further posts from you I will ignore. You're just being obtuse for the sake of it.

Maybe time to get back to those studies

OP posts:
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 21:32

Maybe time to get back to those studies

Or not

I don’t think its helping…maybe a switch to biology would be helpful

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 26/09/2021 21:33

I would put money on the fact I've read more on the subject than most people.

Sad, but possibly true as most of the general population has no idea what is going on. It doesn't follow however that you read:
– accurate information;
– that you understood any science-based evidence that you read.

There is currently a thread about some eye-watering carelessness on the part of some otherwise reputable scientists. They did know better in general but, in this case, they didn't check their sources or read them with the necessary attention.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4359446-Open-letter-from-an-emeritus-editor-at-Science-Based-Medicine-about-the-sites-turn-away-from-rigorous-science?

I recommend reading Singal's work in this instance as it's a masterclass in the gruelling reality of source and factchecking.

maddy68 · 26/09/2021 21:35

"I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. "

That's the rub. This is your view. You stated that some of the class are very conflicted regarding their own sexuality right now. What makes your view the right one? Or their view?

Sounds like the school are just trying to be inclusive for those who have a different view to yours

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/09/2021 21:38

@FreshFancyFrogglette

Biology and science evolve all the time! We are constantly learning new things about what we know.
Indeed we are. I hope today will be no exception for you. 💚

"Intersex" is an umbrella term that is being phased out as lay people incorrectly infer that people with such a condition are between the sexes, and envisage hermaphroditic slugs, which is very othering. Preferred terms now tend to be DSD (Disorder or Difference of Sexual Development) or CCSD (Congenital Condition of Sexual Development).

There seems to be no correlation between them and gender dysphoria.

I quote:

Initially the approach with [gender dysphoria] was similar to that for disorder of sex development, with a karyotype being routinely requested. An audit of UK clinics from 2013 to2015(Table 1)revealed no differences from cytogenetic surveys of the UK newborn population and elsewhere.1011Therefore, routine karyotyping of a child or adolescent with GD is not required unless any specific clinical features determine this to be necessary.

adc.bmj.com/content/103/7/631

If you follow the link, you will see that they found the rate of CCSDs for patients being assessed for gender dysphoria was the same as the rate for the wider populations.

You will see the table is labelled with the term aneuploidies.

An aneuploidy is what we call it when there is an abnormal number of chromosomes in the cell[s] of an organism for its species. For example, humans usually have 23 pairs, or 46 chromosomes, in our nucleated cells. When we don't (typically due to an error during meiosis), things do not go well. A famous example of aneuploidy is Down Syndrome, or Trisomy 21, so called because the cause of this condition is an extra chromosome in pair 21. (Totalling 47 chromosomes.)

Aneuploidies can happen with any of the chromosome pairs, but a large number of them aren't as well known as Down Syndrome, because their effects mean human fetuses conceived with them do not survive to adulthood. Some are so lethal that the fetus is always miscarried.

Naturally, aneuploidies can occur in pair 23, the sex chromosomes. These are people with medical conditions, who deserve to be treated with respect.

Saying that people with aneuploidies of pair 23 are neither male nor female is basically the same thing as saying that people with aneuploidies of any of the other 22 chromosome pairs arent human.

It is horrifically ableist, and I do not wish to see you doing it again on this board. This is a parenting site, and disablism towards people for congenital conditions is never acceptable here.

If you want to do that, go to one of those subs on reddit where they laugh at disabled people.

FreshFancyFrogglette · 26/09/2021 21:40

It's not personal. I actually thought it would be useful in this instance to point out that elsewhere theory on biological determinism has moved on, both in relation to race, and gender.
Lots of people on here still attribute more importance to it than elsewhere in society (for example schools or unis)
It is particularly useful to this thread, because it illustrates how teaching outdated theories, or contested ideas as a fact, can cause issues.
I'm not saying this to be a prick. It's not helpful to have a thread of people agreeing with you.
As I said it's not personal. Everyone is angry with me for pointing out the ideas that were taught to me in school. But this is exactly what this thread is about, so it is a useful comment.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 21:42

What makes your view the right one?

It’ll be the biological fact bit

And honestly im someone happy to not misgender, use preferred pronouns, dont just blurt out uncomfortable truths etc

But there isn’t any getting away from the male/female fact bit

You can’t change sex, its very sad for some but its also very true

Tailendofsummer · 26/09/2021 21:43

@maddy68

"I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. "

That's the rub. This is your view. You stated that some of the class are very conflicted regarding their own sexuality right now. What makes your view the right one? Or their view?

Sounds like the school are just trying to be inclusive for those who have a different view to yours

Maddy what has being conflicted about your sexuality got to do with whether males have penises and females have vaginas?
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 21:43

Everyone is angry with me

I don’t think anyone is angry with you, I’m not

PippaOwl · 26/09/2021 21:44

@maddy68 my view is right though. Biologically. There are men and there are women. I'm old fashioned I know.

I've also explained countless times on this thread that I don't have any agenda, that I believe people should present however they like and I'm teaching my son to respect this.

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/09/2021 21:45

@FreshFancyFrogglette

It's not personal. I actually thought it would be useful in this instance to point out that elsewhere theory on biological determinism has moved on, both in relation to race, and gender. Lots of people on here still attribute more importance to it than elsewhere in society (for example schools or unis) It is particularly useful to this thread, because it illustrates how teaching outdated theories, or contested ideas as a fact, can cause issues. I'm not saying this to be a prick. It's not helpful to have a thread of people agreeing with you. As I said it's not personal. Everyone is angry with me for pointing out the ideas that were taught to me in school. But this is exactly what this thread is about, so it is a useful comment.
Were the people who taught you at school qualified to talk to a set of expecting parents about the likely prognosis of their baby, his or her lifespan, and level of pain, after Edwards Syndrome is diagnosed at an antenatal scan?

If not, I do not see why they, or you, are qualified to opine on Turner Syndrome, CAIS or Klinefelters.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/edwards-syndrome/

PippaOwl · 26/09/2021 21:45

@FreshFancyFrogglette 'I'm not saying this to be a prick'

GrinGrin I enjoyed this

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/09/2021 21:47

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

Everyone is angry with me

I don’t think anyone is angry with you, I’m not

I am a leetle bit snappish about the casual disablism, to be fair.
FreshFancyFrogglette · 26/09/2021 21:48

And thank-you, I will look into that.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 21:48

I am a leetle bit snappish about the casual disablism, to be fair

Fair point

I’ll rephrase

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 21:49

Everyone is angry with me

I don’t think everyone is angry with you, I’m not

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/09/2021 21:51

Much better, Rufus! Much obliged! Grin

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 21:53

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Much better, Rufus! Much obliged! Grin
No problem at all

Lesson 1….you don’t speak for everyone

Youd think id know that by now 😀

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 26/09/2021 21:54

You're just too nice, that's your trouble.

FreshFancyFrogglette · 26/09/2021 21:55

I have never heard of that syndrome, so no, I would not be giving a lecture on it. I'm not really trying to give a lecture on anything. It's just that focusing on the phyiscal attributes associated with a person's sex, are not considered a helpful way of defining them any more. I guess focus may have shifted.
Same with race. Is it useful to try classify everyone according to their racial profile? not really. is it useful to try and categorise everyone by whether they have a penis or not? Not really...

ChairLegs · 26/09/2021 21:55

FreshFancyFroglette Thank you, that's made me laugh.

Do they still teach you how babies are made?

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/09/2021 21:57

purgatory

Its a flaw 😔

😀

Abitofalark · 26/09/2021 22:04

You have to be up early, FFF, to get past the Owl, who's been up all night. Because she's a wise owl and she doesn't give a hoot.