My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

"It’s very sad. But your son matters as much as the other child."

Indeed.

Why was she trying to push her view onto him in an art lesson?

had he asked for it?

Was it at all relevant?

Perhaps she needs to keep schtum!

@PippaOwl

Oh I can well imagine him being belligerent and yep, I bet he was rude to this girl - probably in retaliation but who knows? He's a very typical teen. I've told him off about being rude. She apparently left the lesson in tears so he's clearly upset her with his comments. And I'm not happy about that at all.

I did ask how on earth they'd got on to discussing this in an art lesson but he wasn't too sure. She said something and he said ' nah, that's not right' and it all went from there

And if this intervention mark is for him being rude then that's fine. I'll bollock him a bit more or something - I don't want him being rude

But I know it's not for that ..

Just because someone cries, DOESN'T make them right. It also doesn't mean that they were the most affected party either.

As soon as someone cries, it's as if everyone's critical thinking skills go out of the window. Whatever's gone on, the crying person gets to trump the situation and it's not right. There is a tendency to view a crying person as if they were babies - and babies are never wrong so the other person is immediately demonized.

Here's what's happening in workplaces and schools right now -

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

A friend of mine was talking to a group of us about her trans child and was talking about a hormone wash which changes the sex of the baby

And i know thats not right and i think a few of us knew its wasnt right but we all just sat there, leaving her to ‘educate’ those of us who honestly don’t know

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer I'm sure she has nice qualities, but I would find it hard to be friends with someone who says such bonkers things.

It is not a fact that biological sex is purely determined by your lower genitilia. It is also determined by hormones, hence the existence of hermaphrodites.
So the initial statement "if you have a penis you are male" is factually incorrect. That's before we even consider the role of gender.

FreshFancyFrogglette

It is also determined by hormones, hence the existence of hermaphrodites.

Exactly. Human hermaphrodites do not exist.

What percentage of people with a penis are not, in fact, biologically male?

What else can you be if you are born with a penis? Genuinely puzzled

It is also determined by hormones, hence the existence of hermaphrodites.

That one's actually quite funny. The very concept of "hermaphrodite" requires acknowledgement that the sexes are distinct, so you can actually be "male+female", rather than just "somewhere in-between male and female".

And yes, it happens in other species, sequentially and concurrently.

Not in humans though.

@FreshFancyFrogglette

It is not a fact that biological sex is purely determined by your lower genitilia. It is also determined by hormones, hence the existence of hermaphrodites. So the initial statement "if you have a penis you are male" is factually incorrect. That's before we even consider the role of gender.

It is also determined by hormones

Is it?! How?

Also, what are 'lower genitalia' - we have 'upper genitalia'? Whereabouts?

Dictionary definition of genitals:

www.dictionary.com/browse/genitals

www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/genitals

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/genitals

Just chipping in as a school leader (although in primary

@Masdintle

What are 'lower genitals'? Are there 'upper genitals' too and what are they?

Sorry to quote myself but there hasn't been an answer to this yet

Arabella - what are 'lower genitalia' - we have 'upper genitalia'? Whereabouts?

The phrase was lower genitilia so there is possibly a class analysis that is yet to be revealed. Or it's a refinement on 'lady parts'? I await enlightenment (as I do on so many topics these days).

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Arabella - what are 'lower genitalia' - we have 'upper genitalia'? Whereabouts?

The phrase was lower genitilia so there is possibly a class analysis that is yet to be revealed. Or it's a refinement on 'lady parts'? I await enlightenment (as I do on so many topics these days).

Surely the poster is referencing dickheads. There do seem to be a few of them about.

@FreshFancyFrogglette

If someone has a penis they are male.
If someone has a vagina they are female.

You can get feminine men, you can get masculine women. That is PERSONALITY not gender.

It’s no wonder kids are confused nowadays.
I know plenty of little boys who play dress up in princess clothes or try on mums make up and I know girls who play football and love cars. Their personalities don’t magically turn them into the opposite gender though.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Arabella - what are 'lower genitalia' - we have 'upper genitalia'? Whereabouts?

The phrase was lower genitilia so there is possibly a class analysis that is yet to be revealed. Or it's a refinement on 'lady parts'? I await enlightenment (as I do on so many topics these days).

It's a surprisingly niche misspelling.

I'd tell you what came up, but I'd get banned...

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer I'm sure she has nice qualities, but I would find it hard to be friends with someone who says such bonkers things

She’s a teacher as well!

OP Well done for supporting your son.
Remember that a belief that sex cannot be changed is a valid 'philosophical belief'.
I think you are approaching it in the right way with the school, and I would be interested in their reply.

she's clearly fragile and she doesn't need him almost goading her by chiming in with his views

It sounds like this girl has learned to exploit her "fragility" to her benefit. Her actions are those of a cry bully and a tattle tale. Your son should treat her accordingly.

So someone who has had their penis amputated because of an accident is a female?
What about someone whose Horne profile indicates they are male but they have a vagina?
What do you mean human hermaphrodites don't exist? There are plenty of individuals are display both male and female biological attributes. It's not an exact cut off the way u are describing.
There are men who don't have penises for whatever reason (genetics, accidents, injury, etc).
The statement that men have penises, woman have vaginas, is not actually factually correct in 100% of cases.

*hormone profile

@FreshFancyFrogglette but you know what I meant when I said that 'men have a penis' yes?

You're surely sharp enough to realise that I'm not referring to the rare cases of poor men who have had their penis amputated? And I'm unsure what you mean anyway. A man who's lost his penis is still a man.