My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

[quote PippaOwl]@AnyOldPrion and I'm cross that he caused a girl to leave the lesson crying. So I can well imagine him rudely telling her that her views weren't correct. He says he did this and said to her ' you can't change sex' so she told him to shut up and he responded with a 'ha, you shut up'

So yeah, he deserves to be told off for that [/quote]
Yes, but if does, she does as well. They both told each other to shut up; in fact, she said it first. Both need to be held to the same standard with penalty points if that earns you one. If she hasn't received one, his should be struck from his record.

Student Manager is a non- teaching Head of Year. It's a pastoral role.

Thank you WirKindervom.

I was picturing a student in some kind of temporary position. That this is a permanent member of staff, specifically employed in a pastoral role, makes it worse.

@Newnamefor2021

You best right to scientific America and let them know how "offensive" they are too then

www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

No need to, the author of that piece has already clarified what she meant:

"No, not at all. Two sexes, with a continuum of variation in anatomy/physiology."

12:52 PM · Jul 21, 2017·Twitter for iPhone

twitter.com/ClaireAinsworth/status/888365994577735680?s=20

[quote ScreamingMeMe]**@Newnamefor2021

You best right to scientific America and let them know how "offensive" they are too then

www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

No need to, the author of that piece has already clarified what she meant:

"No, not at all. Two sexes, with a continuum of variation in anatomy/physiology."

12:52 PM · Jul 21, 2017·Twitter for iPhone

twitter.com/ClaireAinsworth/status/888365994577735680?s=20[/quote]
That article has been discussed a number of times and the threads can be retrieved by putting this in a search engine (MN's own search function is not helpful):

site:mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights www.scientificamerican.com/article/sex-redefined-the-idea-of-2-sexes-is-overly-simplistic1/

I'd write something along the lines of:

"I've seen a penalty mark appear on my son's record. It doesn't go into any more detail and I've not been contacted about any misbehaviour so could someone please fill me in with what has happened?"

Then if it was about rudeness/disruption, thank them for their time and say that you will be talking to your son. You might be able to slip in something about whether both parties have received the same treatment.

If on the other hand it was about wrongspeak, then you can push further.

I wouldn't worry about the tears. Teenagers aren't fully developed in their capacity for reasoning and debate so their response when cornered by an argument is often to throw a strop.

I've gone with this ...

Hi xxx

Hope you’re well.

Just dropping you a quick line as I noticed that Xxx has received an ‘intervention’ although it doesn’t state what this has been given for. As this is unusual for Xxx, I wanted to get in touch to ask what it’s been given for and if there’s anything I need to do at this end to add support.

I’d be grateful if you could come back to me and let me know what has happened

Many thanks

Kind regards

It's not perfectly worded, having had a read through but meh. It'll do. I wanted to leave it very open ended so didn't mention what DS has told me.

Ok I have a little more info from DS

The girl he was arguing with is trans. DS aware of this but has not spoken to her before in the only lesson they share together. She was talking about how you can change sex and old big mouth couldn't resist chiming in with 'no you can't'

She retaliated, he went back and then she told him to shut up and he responded with 'ha you shut up'

She then left the lesson and within minutes was back with the student manager. She has a 'direct line' to the student manager and can go to her whenever she wants, regardless of lesson etc. And I think this is fine - she's a vulnerable young person

Student manager very cross. Had made a list of the comments he'd made as given to her by the girl. She asked him if he'd said them. He said yes

She was very angry with him and told him his views were factually wrong and she never wanted to have this conversation with him again

I've told him he's not to talk to this girl again and that there was no need for him to pipe up with his opinion. He is to leave her be as she's clearly fragile and she doesn't need him almost goading her by chiming in with his views

But ... it looks more likely that he received the penalty mark for stating views

Blimey

His views aren’t factually wrong

At all

I agree that its all in the delivery, unfortunately nowadays its not only HOW you say it….its WHAT you say

I'd like him to just shut up in future around trans people . That's basic respect and I've been clear I expect him to be respectful and absolutely his views weren't required when she was saying hers.

He says he couldn't help himself. I've told him he's to help himself from now on. It's not worth the upset he's caused to her

I've also said his views aren't wrong though.

Ugh it's a minefield isn't it

She then left the lesson and within minutes was back with the student manager. She has a 'direct line' to the student manager and can go to her whenever she wants, regardless of lesson etc. And I think this is fine - she's a vulnerable young person

Yes. And, it is disturbing that this is so effective as a trump card in a context that is not meant to be oppression point-scoring. Has there been a general announcement that particular schoolmates are not to be disagreed with - how far does this extend?

I was at a recent event where people with GNC children (for want of a better descriptor) were telling me how helpful the schools were being in allowing their children to have a mental health day at will that would never count as a demerit for their attendance record. I can't think how many threads I've seen on MN about children with disabilities or chronic illnesses who have no such accommodation and it is a source of deep distress to them.

Privileging one protected characteristics over others was never the intention because it does, inevitably, create a sacred caste.

A friend of mine was talking to a group of us about her trans child and was talking about a hormone wash which changes the sex of the baby

And i know thats not right and i think a few of us knew its wasnt right but we all just sat there, leaving her to ‘educate’ those of us who honestly don’t know

Ugh it's a minefield isn't it

Some people have made it a minefield yes…

Its getting a bit Animal Farm isn't it? Some are more equal than others.

@PippaOwl

Ok I have a little more info from DS

The girl he was arguing with is trans. DS aware of this but has not spoken to her before in the only lesson they share together. She was talking about how you can change sex and old big mouth couldn't resist chiming in with 'no you can't'

She retaliated, he went back and then she told him to shut up and he responded with 'ha you shut up'

She then left the lesson and within minutes was back with the student manager. She has a 'direct line' to the student manager and can go to her whenever she wants, regardless of lesson etc. And I think this is fine - she's a vulnerable young person

Student manager very cross. Had made a list of the comments he'd made as given to her by the girl. She asked him if he'd said them. He said yes

She was very angry with him and told him his views were factually wrong and she never wanted to have this conversation with him again

I've told him he's not to talk to this girl again and that there was no need for him to pipe up with his opinion. He is to leave her be as she's clearly fragile and she doesn't need him almost goading her by chiming in with his views

But ... it looks more likely that he received the penalty mark for stating views

This is a problem because the child your son spoke to has been led to believe that sex really is in the head and biology is meaningless. This is where the ‘affirmation model’ for young people with dysphoria comes unstuck: when faced with reality, the child runs to a teaching assistant in order to punish your son or ‘make it stop’. This is where the fingers in ears ‘no debate’ dogma leads. It’s very sad. But your son matters as much as the other child.

Mind blown at hormone washing.

I resent being made to feel backward or transphobic for holding a view point based on science

@MinervaBoudicca I think you're spot on. However he's mentally 'robust' for want of a better word so I'm having to treat carefully with how I'm disciplining him about this - or not. She clearly isn't mentally robust. His exact words were ' she's always running to Miss xxx crying' so this is a common theme.

I'm having to basically say he mustn't speak up. Which won't kill him and makes art lessons smoother I suppose - but for him to say anything to her again is just goading her which I'm not having him do. He won't again anyway.

I would email and say you’re hurt and upset that they would discriminate your child on their religious views regarding gender.

So he must remain silent if a trans person is speaking. With all due respect this could prove very difficult. What is trans? Will everyone he argues with pull this card out now? He is the vulnerable one here.

Other kids might try and get him into trouble now by asking him what his views are on this topic, he should be prepared for this.

@dapsnotplimsolls

Other kids might try and get him into trouble now by asking him what his views are on this topic, he should be prepared for this.

That would be an ecumenical matter.

No, I don't have concerns about other kids getting him into trouble. He has had the same group of friends since primary in most of his classes and they all think the same as him.

I don't doubt for a moment that trans children can have very upsetting experiences at school and my son is not going to adding to that if I have anything to do with it.

So I'm backing him on the one hand and not on the other (rudeness) and that's quite a tricky balance isn't it

@PippaOwl

It's not perfectly worded, having had a read through but meh. It'll do. I wanted to leave it very open ended so didn't mention what DS has told me.

Exactly right about leaving it open ended, as you do not want to box yourself in or suggest speculative reasons such as disrupting the class, which hasn't come into it - the record only states 'staff conversation'.

Equally you wouldn't want to offer unqualified support, for example if they are being unfair on him because of his opinions but you would of course support good behaviour.