My 14 year old son got into trouble at school yesterday ...

[PippaOwl]

I don't profess to be an expert in all things gender and sex related but I've brought my eldest (now adult) daughter to know her boundaries and I've brought my 14 year old son up to (age appropriately so far!) know how we treat girls, how we behave on social media and all the other stuff surrounding that

A HUGE part of his school experience at the moment is being surrounded by girls and boys who are confused regarding their sexuality and their gender. I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. I've also explained to him that some people feel trapped in the wrong body and therefore it's their absolute right to express themselves how they want and they deserve respect

Yesterday at school he was in a lesson and got involved in a discussion with a girl. He said to her that girls couldn't be boys and vice versa. She disagreed so a verbal argument ensued. (Not shouting or anything!) She told him to shut up and that he was talking rubbish so he told her to shut up too.

Next thing, he's being taken out of class by the student manager. Who's told him off and issued a 'penalty mark' against him for his views. He argued this and said he was right. She said ... and I quote ... ' the facts are that gender and your sex begin in the brain so you need to be aware of the facts of this before talking rubbish about how your genitals define your sex'

It's all been left now and he has this penalty mark against him (no big deal, but still.. he's a good pupil and he's not had this before!) but am I actually going mad? We have a student manager here who is saying having a penis doesn't make you a man - what your brain tells you does..

I'm unsure how to deal with my son too! Ive told him he must not be rude to anyone and I don't expect him to be telling people to shut up, so he's been told clearly about that. Ive also told him his view is entirely right.

Your thoughts?

I'd ask to see the school's policy on this too. I think some staff are being pushed to sign and agree with all sorts that is being pushed through and it's a case of having to implement it, so the member of staff dealing with it may have been doing their job and following a stupid policy.

@Abitofalark

Good grief - things have moved on today with some spectacular comments. What I learnt last year in gender studies is my favourite.
Good to see that the scientists, biologists, doctors, psychologists, philosophers, educators, mothers, feminists and women are holding up under the pressure

I'm pretty sure about what I'm going to do.

If she comes back to me and says he was rude / disruptive and she had to talk to him etc and that's why he's been 'punished' I will say ' thanks for clarifying. He tells me that xxx happened so it's nice to have confirmation from you that he has not been given this penalty mark for expressing a factual view, thanks for confirming this hasn't been the case. Rest assured I will be addressing his attitude over him being rude as it's not behaviour I expect from him.'

This I hope will make it very clear where I stand without having to go to war over it.

I don't want to go to war. He has to attend this school and I'd like him to do so without any hassle from above but I do need to clear it up

Which I hope just makes it clear to her

And if she opens up the whole sex and gender thing thing with me - well, I'll have to go there!

@ChairLegs

FreshFancyFroglette Thank you, that's made me laugh.

Do they still teach you how babies are made?

This is maybe not classed as 'useful' information.

Looking forward to seeing how this one pans out, keep us posted OP!

@Looneytune253

This thread has made me so so sad! I have a child that is living non binary at the moment but are much happier being 'boy' (born girl). I'd hate it if OPs son behaved like this. It's just awful towards a child that is potentially torn with their own emotions and just finding themselves and understanding what makes them happy. Why can't you just be happy that they're happy. I'm not surprised the school have come down heavy on this kind of behaviour. The poor children that are so so torn deserve the support of their peers and teachers.

But why does any of that mean op's son, or anyone else, should have to go along with the utter nonsense that humans can somehow change sex? Why should this adult be allowed to tell her son that HIS factually correct opinion is wrong? That's gaslighting and coercion.

Altering appearance or taking hormones does not change a person's sex. There is no male or female brain.

Gender is not sex.

Teenage girls suffering rapid onset dysphoria due to a variety of reasons are not being helped by the current social contagion from social media and having adult lobby groups being allowed to 'teach' them the religious orthodoxy of gender identity ideology as fact, especially when the vast majority grow out of their dysphoria when the puberty they hate so much matures their body AND brain.

These non conforming children SHOULD be left alone to find themselves without being fed lies by adults pushing an agenda.

Proper support should be given for poor mental health but why does that entail everyone else having to pretend your child is somehow no longer female? Surely the most healthy thing for the majority of these children is to come to terms with the reality of their perfectly healthy sexed bodies and that feeling uncomfortable with themselves during puberty is perfectly normal.

OP, leaving the girl out of it completely now, I personally would be having strong words with the student manager, for not only speaking to my child like that, but for forcing THEIR non factual, entirely unprovable religious beliefs onto my child.
How dare they tell him biology facts are wrong.

The right not to hold a religious belief is a protected characteristic.

'Gender' and 'Gender identity' are not protected characteristics.

The poor children that are so so torn deserve the support of their peers and teachers.

I would like all children with a protected characteristic to have the support of their peers and teachers.

I am also a strong supporter of teaching accurate science. I would very much oppose penalising children for holding a scientifically accurate perspective: manifesting that perspective in service of discrimination etc. is a different matter (see the Forstater appeal outcome).

I think both of the above should be achieved within a suitable ethical and educational framework.

@FreshFancyFrogglette

I have never heard of that syndrome, so no, I would not be giving a lecture on it. I'm not really trying to give a lecture on anything. It's just that focusing on the phyiscal attributes associated with a person's sex, are not considered a helpful way of defining them any more. I guess focus may have shifted. Same with race. Is it useful to try classify everyone according to their racial profile? not really. is it useful to try and categorise everyone by whether they have a penis or not? Not really...

I'm not talking about a "lecture".

I'm talking about giving a distressed couple clear information about their baby's likely quality of life, what 21st century medicine can do for this condition, explaining what causes aneuploidies, and discussing the probability of it occurring in a subsequent pregnancy.

If your studies have not taught you how to do that, you can't do it about any other aneuploidy, even if it occurs on pair 23.

You especially can't do it if you think hermaphrodites exist in humans. Is this Anne Fausto-Sterling again...? You need to listen to people with these congenital conditions.

On this subject, genetic conditions are not cultural phenomena!
They are physical realities, as is life and death, and as are the two sexes in our fellow mammals. If every human being disappeared off the planet today, the rest of the animal kingdom would still have male and female. And if we're not there to describe it, they are still male and female. Just as an animal's broken leg is still broken even if a human isn't there to pass comment.

It is human arrogance that makes us think there is something special about us.

A deer with a penis is a male deer: a stag.
A deer with a vagina is a female deer: a doe.

A guinea pig with a penis is a male guinea pig: a boar.
A guinea pig with a vagina is a female guinea pig: a sow.

A human being with a penis is a male human being: a man.
A human being with a vagina is a female human being: a woman.

Ask a farmer if there is any use in categorising her four-legged bovine creatures by whether they have a penis or not. She'll tell you that it is very important.

Ask a paediatrician if it's useful to categorise every baby by whether it has a baby or not. She'll tell you it is, if you care about optimising the health outcomes of every patient. All the newborn babies with penises get a testicle check to identify that those are in order. Then, for the next year, babies and their weight gain is tracked according to sex, to check that they are following a regular weight curve and that they are thriving. The curves for boys and for girls are different, because of sexual dimorphism!

@FreshFancyFrogglette

I'm a third wave Feminist. What I learnt last year in gender studies, is completely different to the ideas most of mumsnet were taught 20 years ago. Things move on. It's no longer men vs women. To me sex is not the dichotomous entity we used to think it was. Obviously that's very problematic for second wave feminism, which relies on that distinction in order to make its argument. Its still useful, but things have evolved.

Come back to us when you been raped by a non-dichotomous entity?

PippaOwl That sounds sensible. If it does become necessary, I think it was mentioned up thread, but so-called 'gender critical' beliefs are protected beliefs under the EA2010.

Assuming the mark was not given for the "shut up" (as I assume it wasn't given only one of the students who said it received a mark), I would be questioning the same teacher as to whether she would think it appropriate to discipline either participant in a conversation that went, "There is a God." / "No, there's not."

If not, the teacher will need to explain how and why they are differentiating between an absence of belief in God and an absence of belief in gender, and why they feel it is acceptable to penalise a student for one of those legally protected belief and not the other. I think this will be difficult.

I don't envy that teacher's position either but it is not open to them to just throw the more emotionally robust student under the bus on the basis that there are likely to be fewer actual consequences, or because that teacher's own beliefs happen to coincide with those of the other student. There has to be more principle underpinning than that and at times that requires gently explaining to an upset student in front of you that - while perfectly ok to feel upset or angry - tolerating others' right to their respectfully expressed views, even when those views may feel very personal and upsetting to us, is one price of living in a liberal democracy.

@maddy68

"I've always been very very clear with him on my views - if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female and that's that. "

That's the rub. This is your view. You stated that some of the class are very conflicted regarding their own sexuality right now. What makes your view the right one? Or their view?

Sounds like the school are just trying to be inclusive for those who have a different view to yours

That is not a viewpoint, it's a straight up fact.

Where is the line to be drawn though?

It's a slippery slope to insanity when the biological facts and truth of the 99%+ are considered discriminatory or hate.

I don't believe in God. I can still respect those who do. The difference is I'm not being legally forced to worship at their alter.

FreshFancyFrogglette

If you want to be pedantic. If you’re born with a penis you’re male, a vagina female. Hence ‘it’s a boy!’ No amount of attention seeking or shouts of phobia and discrimination will actually change that fact.

Sounds like the school are just trying to be inclusive for those who have a different view

Can you explain how the school are trying to be 'inclusive' for those with a different view whilst telling the OP's son that HIS view isn't allowed, because that doesn't sound very inclusive to me..

Sounds like the school are just trying to be inclusive for those who have a different view

Unfortunately the majority tend now to be woke and on the lgbtqia spectrum. Those with a different view are told they’re phobic, whatever-ist, outdated or whatever. Didn’t have all this attention seeking before the internet, but what’s the point in being ‘different’ if you can’t get Instagram likes.

I have a child that is living non binary at the moment but are much happier being 'boy' (born girl)

I am curious what your child imagines “being a boy” to involve.

What is possible “as a boy” that wasn’t possible “as a girl”?

Why wasn’t it possible?

Ah, third wave feminism is here. Where you’re raped and assaulted because you’re a woman but not allowed to say that. Where healthcare is increasingly poorer for women as the concept is erased, and also still poor for trans people but you’re only allowed to complain if 1. It’s about trans people and 2. You don’t mention the obvious solution, to record biological sex.
It will be mentioned in the history books, that’s for sure. Probably with a line about meanwhile, across the world, in tigray, in Yemen, in Ethiopia, women died in childbirth and women held their babies as they died of hunger and they didn’t stop to think of whether they were really women. In Afghanistan they sat at home unable to go to school or work and worried about being married off without it even occurring to them their woke rich cousins might suggest they identify out of it. In many developing countries they stayed home while having their period, because turning up somewhere would be both humiliating and risk them being turned into an actual body with a vagina. Good old third wave feminism, along with cutting taxes for those earning over £500,000. Important stuff for building a better world.

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

A friend of mine was talking to a group of us about her trans child and was talking about a hormone wash which changes the sex of the baby

And i know thats not right and i think a few of us knew its wasnt right but we all just sat there, leaving her to ‘educate’ those of us who honestly don’t know

"This is interesting stuff, I'd like to read a few papers. Have you a link?"

whatsnewpussyhat If that is directed at me, I completely agree. I think that the EA (and subsequent case law about what constitutes a philosophical belief - it may not be an opinion or viewpoint based on the present state of information available(!)) has a whacking great hole in it in that it is unfit to protect people against discrimination for stating empirical facts that are widely accepted and understood by the vast majority of the population.

I sympathise with the gap in that it must have seemed completely inconceivable that anyone might, for example, face serious discrimination for making a bald statement of fact which they could back up by simply presenting the OED, a child's encyclopedia, any medical textbook, a Venn diagram or the most basic application of formal logic.

But yes, it bothers me that this country fought so long and bloodily for religious freedom (and, more importantly, freedom from religion) and is so pious about the importance of it, while reverting exactly to the vicious and self-righteous oppression of heterodoxy in a barely different arena (and by much the same methods too).

I have a child that is living non binary at the moment but are much happier being 'boy' (born girl)

So you have a daughter with a Tom boy personality who has been brainwashed into thinking she can’t possibly be normal or is attention seeking because everyone else in school is ‘different’ and ‘special’

But yes, it bothers me that this country fought so long and bloodily for religious freedom (and, more importantly, freedomfromreligion) and is so pious about the importance of it, while reverting exactly to the vicious and self-righteous oppression of heterodoxy in a barely different arena (and by much the same methods too).

THIS

@FreshFancyFrogglette

It is not a fact that biological sex is purely determined by your lower genitilia. It is also determined by hormones, hence the existence of hermaphrodites. So the initial statement "if you have a penis you are male" is factually incorrect. That's before we even consider the role of gender.

Please provide one single, documented case of a human reproducing both as a male, and as a female. Actually, any mammal.

@FreshFancyFrogglette

You said in your op, I've always taught him that men have penises, women have vaginas, that statement is wrong. That is what I have issue with.

Your reading comprehension might need work. The OP said that "if you have a penis you are a male and if you have a vagina you are female"

There is nothing incorrect about that statement at all. Males do have penises. She did not say "all" males - eunuchs are males who no longer have their penises. They are most definitely not female. Nor, for that matter are transwomen female, no matter what surgery they have or haven't had.

Isn't it a delight to be teensplained by someone who did "gender studies"? We'll stick to the science, thanks.