Woman's hour now...!

[WarriorN]

Eerr what now?

They want our views! Go vipers go!!!!

The women who stand up for TWAW all seem (to me) to be brainwashed and kowtowing to people who were born men, still hold on to male privilege, want to shout out any women who don't agree with them and have precisely no interest in women's rights at all.

I am totally in favour of trans rights but they do not and should not supersede women's rights. I don't think it's at all surprising that the TRA are by and large led by transwomen who are quicker to attack women than they are the men who are far more likely to physically attack them and are responsible for all or nearly all - I don't know the exact numbers - murder trans women because of transphobia.

Ultimately. this debate - or lack of debate because god forbid you try to talk about it with TRA - is an attack on women, on our lived experience and our biological bodies.

I am so glad to read this thread and look forward to hearing it.

I have emailed WH twice now to ask that they practice due diligence and challenge the fake trans suicide statistic.

I have emailed WH twice now to ask that they practice due diligence and challenge the fake trans suicide statistic.

A nice crossover would be for WH to interview the More or Less people about zombie claims and statistics and this should be one of them for its huge impact on schools and family life for so many people in the UK.

Yes, that would be great.

I did laugh when Christine said that we do need to remember how men were treated in the 80s. She's worried about how men are being treated when she talks about Helen Belcher. Clear as day that she thinks Belcher is a man. She said he throughout the sad story.

I bet Belcher is annoyed. No one manages to stay on message do they?

Belcher added that the law as it stands allows spouses to “use this veto as a weapon to hurt their exes and prevent them from moving on in their lives”

This is not true. The spousal veto is there to prevent a spouse from being forced into a same sex marriage.

Ultimately, what strikes me again and again is that it seems so many people simply duck and equivocate answering these questions directly. Because they have been told it is hurtful to be truthful.

And then they bring in their ‘mates’ anecdotes for back up.

It doesn’t seem to matter whether it is a poster on MN or a leader of a political party. The truth is the emperor has no clothes!!!

At least Ed Davey hinted at the truth yesterday. He is very concerned about being kicked out for not being seen to repeat the mantra. His defensive tone of ‘nobody can say that I am not supporting trans rights’ said it all.

And you get people lying saying there is no power being wielded for submission. So, not only is the emperor naked but someone has a bridge being sold over and over.

Just emailed complaint to BBC as on lunchtime news Rosie Duffield's views were described by presenter , not Victoria Derbyshire, as ' controversial' . Have suggested biological males having male bodies is not controversial.

If somebody were to transcribe this, they would be going me a big favour.

Because I think I heard Jardine say in virtually the same breath, that a woman who was being coercively controlled with threats of suicide was put up on a podium in order to influence Lib Dem policy and that she is concerned about domestic abuse.

When Lisa 'more light less heat' Nandy was running for Labour Party leader, she was prepared to base party policy on her one mtf trans child constituent.

This included allowing all male-bodied people who identified as women into women's prisons.

She didn't seem to have given much thought to any of the implications arising from that policy - she just felt sorry for her trans child constituent and everything else flowed from that.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

Policy discussions based on "my friend", "as a mother", "my friend's child" "I heard someone at conference say" We all use personal experiences at times. But when you're in a role that means making policy that affects the whole population, to base it on what your friend's child's experiences are is frightening

As a society with key policy-making organisations and institutions, we don't have a well thought out approach to the evidence of people with lived experience. Yes, it's essential but it should not acquire the tyranny of a sacred caste that can't be questioned and whose needs trump those of everybody else or other groups.

Neither lived experience nor anecdotes about it should be beyond challenge. And nor should it be exempt from the overall modern take: In God we trust, everyone else should bring data.

Excellent post. As feminists we learn from our lived experiences and fight to ensure that women's voices are heard. But we also know that allowing people to make laws based on their own (often tragic) experiences has at times led to poor / unworkable laws. That's why we rely on policy makers not to be captured, not to be in hock to whichever lobby group manages to get a seat at the table (and as in this case, they're usually male groups). But to stand back and balance competing needs using a mix of evidence, statistics and anticipating unintended consequences. So all politicians should have anticipated that if they kow tow to the demands of men wishing to take over women's identity and rights as their own, they will get a backlash from women.

Up now on BBC Sounds, from 2m 57s, Jardine on from 5m 40s:

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000zsdl

Gosh. Christine

I think the world needs to hear more from Christine on this. She is an ideal spokesperson.

I mean, if I can ignore how much I am cringing for her...

It is appalling to me that it is being overlooked by the media that Rosie Duffield does not feel safe to attend the Labour Conference, because she spoke a fact that a minority group did not like. She is now being hounded and threatened because she threatens their ideology with fact.

Labour have dealt with a lethal threat and murder of their female MP's lives IN THE RECENT PAST ffs by a man who disliked that Jo Cox threatened his ideology on immigrants with fact. Why do women's lives matter less? Even female MP's, who hold a more protected position than most of us, safety matters left. It is appalling and serious. Threats to the safety and lives of women are at stake here and the media and political parties need to get a fucking grip on it before another woman is murdered. I'd rather hurt a trans womans feelings than see the blood of another female MP be split on the street. And they wonder why we are angry? WE ARE NOT LESS.

But we also know that allowing people to make laws based on their own (often tragic) experiences has at times led to poor / unworkable laws. That's why we rely on policy makers not to be captured... But to stand back and balance competing needs using a mix of evidence, statistics and anticipating unintended consequences.

I think this reflects a very charitable view (not necessarily your view) We already have plenty of evidence that the Gender Recognition Act has had unforeseen or unintended consequences. We have evidence from Ireland that the self-id pushed through without discussion has led to disasters like the BK case. There is enough data out there for policymakers to examine.
So although it is possible that in 2004 it was incompetence and a lack of foresight that policymakers were suffering from, I really don't think we can argue that now. It's deliberate now. Using a mate of a mate of a mate is deliberate obfuscation, it's not what we pay these people to do, they have the data and they're ignoring it.

Interesting I can't find ANYTHING on wh's twitter about this, though I wonder if it was a last minute current news thing.

Unless I've missed it? Can't see a post on their twitter.

Too hot to handle ?

@EdgeOfACoin

When Lisa 'more light less heat' Nandy was running for Labour Party leader, she was prepared to base party policy on her one mtf trans child constituent.

This included allowing all male-bodied people who identified as women into women's prisons.

She didn't seem to have given much thought to any of the implications arising from that policy - she just felt sorry for her trans child constituent and everything else flowed from that.

February 2020 Dr Julia Long questioned Lisa Nandy. 'Lisa Nandy says child rapists should be in women’s prisons'

Neither lived experience nor anecdotes about it should be beyond challenge.

Individual lived experience is anecdote

"my friend", "as a mother", "my friend's child" "I heard someone at conference say"

This is hearsay

Policy should never be made based on anecdote and hearsay

I emailed them and said that if more WH broadcasts were like this, I’d start listening again. Proper, serious, relevant topics and yes, a celebrity (Julia Bradbury), but talking about her breast cancer not some poxy children’s book or cat cafe. Every time I heard it over the last few years there was some celebrity doing something tiresome, or a similarly trivial filler in between pussyfooting round serious issues.

@WarriorN

Interesting I can't find ANYTHING on wh's twitter about this, though I wonder if it was a last minute current news thing.

Unless I've missed it? Can't see a post on their twitter.

Too hot to handle ?

TBH, I can understand the reasoning. Don't put it on Twitter and we have a bigger chance of having an adult conversation about it, fewer rape/death threats and less noise.

"We should never forget how gay man were treated in the 80s"

Absolutely not Christine, I agree, but you could have said gay people, no? Or do lesbians not count as having suffered bigotry because women just don't matter? It's always, always, always about the penis owners.

Uuuugh. It's a car crash listening to this, an absolute embarrassment and good on Emma for trying to make Christine J accountable for her words and explain them. She's come across so incredibly badly, word soup and nonsense galore.

Imagine a world where politicians even just ONCE gave yes / no answers to yes / no questions. What a joy it would be.

True but it would have illustrated what Rosie is coping with.

This is a clip from the BBC Scotland interview this morning 😟 hope it works

Pro GRA reform expert says it doesn’t matter if there’s a spike in murders of women because of Self ID because these issues can be fixed if they happen.

clip

Yes - stop appropriating and conflating this with gay rights.

Not the same in any way.

@Bejazzled

This is a clip from the BBC Scotland interview this morning 😟 hope it works

Pro GRA reform expert says it doesn’t matter if there’s a spike in murders of women because of Self ID because these issues can be fixed if they happen.

clip

I don't suppose anyone asks the expert how you can retrospectively fix a murder? Or the fear and anxiety in the community - in this case, women - that that murder causes?