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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's hour now...!

447 replies

WarriorN · 20/09/2021 10:04

Eerr what now?

They want our views! Go vipers go!!!!

OP posts:
lottiegarbanzo · 20/09/2021 12:54

Does all this kindness, listening and understanding not extend to those women who find themselves in what they thought were female-only spaces but turned out not to be, with unpleasant consequences?

I'd have liked to have heard Emma pick up the interviewee's deep concern, conciliation and niceness and run with that, naturally, to embrace such an example.

NecessaryScene · 20/09/2021 12:55

At the moment, they're just sitting back and enjoying the chaos.

Never interfere with the enemy when he is in the process of destroying himself.

futureghost · 20/09/2021 12:57

I just cannot respect the intellectual position of people who way ' TWAW' whilst simultaneously not being able to define what a women. That just shows the utter vacuity of their thinking.

CatsOperatingInGangs · 20/09/2021 12:59

Just caught up with Woman’s Hour. Gosh the Belchers have really done a number in the LibDems.

I don’t think people feel they’re able to say no to a trans person when sat at a policy meeting. You can see the same thing happen from the IOC to the LD, Labour etc

LizzieSiddal · 20/09/2021 13:01

politics Live also quoted a “senior female Labour political” who said they are angry at the Oxygen the RD story was getting.

I wonder if that anger will ever transfer to actually listening to women!

lottiegarbanzo · 20/09/2021 13:01

And wasn't all that 'as a mother' stuff just tedious? We get it LD lady whose name I can't remember, Sturgeon doesn't have kids, so is subject to confusion, pragmatism, hardness and is not as perfectly, softly ethically aligned and lovely as you would like to see yourself as being.

It reminded me of when Andrea Leadsome did it to Theresa May.

Again though, it is so easy for an interviewer to pick up on and run with, in terms of being a mother of daughters, who are about to be pushed out of sport, changing room privacy and dignity etc.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/09/2021 13:03

But sturgeon is full on TWAW!

dapsnotplimsolls · 20/09/2021 13:06

I caught it as I was driving in to work - couldn't believe what I was hearing :)

lottiegarbanzo · 20/09/2021 13:08

The interviewee wanted to portray the SNP as split on the issue. So about Sturgeon as a party leader, rather than individually.

R0wantrees · 20/09/2021 13:08

Just caught up with Woman’s Hour. Gosh the Belchers have really done a number in the LibDems.

Helen Belcher was also part of the team of five individuals who set up and ran 'Trans Media Watch', a group that has had a great deal of influence on UK media. As described in the speech below:

TedTalk
January 2018

'Changing Media'
www.ted.com/talks/helen_belcher_changing_media

VladmirsPoutine · 20/09/2021 13:09

@NecessaryScene

At the moment, they're just sitting back and enjoying the chaos.

Never interfere with the enemy when he is in the process of destroying himself.

I think this is it. I was wracking my brains earlier to figure out if I'd ever heard a prominent cabinet member speaking on it and can't say I have.
LongBlobson · 20/09/2021 13:12

I nearly cried with relief listening to this today. Just to have it discussed openly on mainstream media. I've emailed Woman's Hour to thank them, and to suggest they get Emma to interview Helen Joyce next.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 20/09/2021 13:14

@LongBlobson

I nearly cried with relief listening to this today. Just to have it discussed openly on mainstream media. I've emailed Woman's Hour to thank them, and to suggest they get Emma to interview Helen Joyce next.
That would be quite a shift for them.

They should talk to Helen Joyce because she's very clear that her concern is about the consequences of ideology and consequent changes to public policy and the erosion of human rights rather than caring much about feminism or the notion of a self-contained trans identity.

R0wantrees · 20/09/2021 13:17

I think this is it. I was wracking my brains earlier to figure out if I'd ever heard a prominent cabinet member speaking on it and can't say I have.

Spectator byJames Kirkup
Jacob Rees-Mogg, radical feminist?
3 April 2018
(extract)
The Mail on Sunday this week carried an interview with Jacob Rees-Mogg. The paper didn’t make much of it, but it contained quite an important line:


He is uneasy about some aspects of the transgender rights debate.
‘If you have people who have no intention of changing sex but think it would be fun to go into the women’s changing room, we cannot ignore that.’

In other words, JRM is worried about self-identification, which the Government is – nominally – committed to exploring in a consultation. In a sense, there’s nothing striking about that: I know lots of MPs, Tory and Labour, who have such worries, though few dare say so right now. My suspicion is that the real, but often hidden, scale of parliamentary unease will mean that a government that lacks a majority and is hardly short of complex and risky political battles to fight will not rush into its gender law consultation. As any good whip would say, why pick a fight you don’t need to start and which you might well lose?

But what is striking about Rees Mogg’s position is what it says about the political coalitions that are forming on the gender debate. JRM is a dust-dry Tory and committed Catholic, and a reliable spokesman on many issues for a significant number of traditional-minded Tory MPs and members. (See ConHome for how much card-carrying Tories love him). Yet his unease on the potential abuse of gender laws by ill-intentioned men is shared by others from many other points on the political spectrum. Many of the most vocal questioners of transgender orthodoxy are feminists (radical and otherwise) and quite a few (but not all) of them are very much on the Left.

Indeed, some of the most prominent feminist voices here — Linda Bellos, Kiri Tunks, Lucy Massoud — are on the Left of even today’s Labour Party; the latter two are trade unionists whose names appear regularly in the Morning Star. Indeed, A Woman’s Place UK, one of the grassroots movements that organises debates for people with concerns about proposed changes in gender laws, counts many senior trade unionists among its organisers.

My point is that the list of people who question the direction of travel (and lopsided debate) on gender issues is a long and varied one. It includes traditional social conservatives and socialist feminists and people in the middle-ground in between. And Mumsnet, of course, where the unlikely alliances forged by the gender debate are frequently observed with happy surprise: welcome to The Spectator, MNetters." (continues)
www.spectator.co.uk/article/jacob-rees-mogg-radical-feminist-

Rees-Mogg also spoke out in support of Joanna Cherry MP earlier this year and the importance of free speech:

goinggently · 20/09/2021 13:28

@futureghost

I just cannot respect the intellectual position of people who way ' TWAW' whilst simultaneously not being able to define what a women. That just shows the utter vacuity of their thinking.
A bit like claiming to have been born in the wrong body, whilst simultaneously denying the biological reality of that body? 🤯
skodadoda · 20/09/2021 13:28

@Lifeinthelastlane

So what age, Christine?
Christine says the courts should decide - erm, last week a court declared that they shouldn’t.
skodadoda · 20/09/2021 13:29

@CriticalCondition

Emma knows her stuff. Just referred to the Keira bell appeal.
Much backpedaling by Christine Jardine.
MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/09/2021 13:30

Just listened to it - Christine Jardine is an embarrassment. Policy discussions based on "my friend", "as a mother", "my friend's child" "I heard someone at conference say"
We all use personal experiences at times. But when you're in a role that means making policy that affects the whole population, to base it on what your friend's child's experiences are is frightening.
Oh for an intelligent discussion about why we are giving males with AGP (or without) the rights to remove safeguarding from women and children.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 20/09/2021 13:30

@VladmirsPoutine, Liz Truss has been fairly forthright on this matter.

twitter.com/LBC/status/1396747721856491522?s=20

"Women have vaginas, Nick," says International Secretary Liz Truss, in response to a law student who faces disciplinary action for making the same comment.

Jaysmith71 · 20/09/2021 13:31

"Senior female Labour figure...."

Oooooh, I wonder who that could be?

Maybe Angela Rayner knows?

Mummyoflittledragon · 20/09/2021 13:32

Thanks for posting. I missed this. It’s everywhere now. A big spotlight finally come on! Are we not now a tiny country in the sea of countries all fallen to the TWAW mantra?

Jaysmith71 · 20/09/2021 13:34

...and it only seems like two years ago that it was the female jewish MPs who were getting the death threats and people were making too much of that.

Wonder who's next?

(First they came for, etc.)

goinggently · 20/09/2021 13:38

I was so relieved that Liz Truss was kept in her post as minister for women and equalities.

RE other countries.... I really hope Trudeau gets an unpleasant surprise at forthcoming election

TedImgoingmad · 20/09/2021 13:43

[quote MrsOvertonsWindow]I missed all this but heard the Emma interview Charlie Webster who was abused (along with other girls) by her sports coach. Her programme is on BBC1 at 10.30 tonight.
It sounds well worth watching and of course will exemplify the lengths that some men will go to to seek out girls in order to abuse them.

www.radiotimes.com/tv-programme/n7jwz8/nowhere-to-run-abused-by-our-coach/[/quote]
You might be interesting in "Where is George Gibney?" on BBC Sounds, about the former Rep of Ireland Olympic swimming coach. Whilst Ireland basks in the glow of its new found liberal credentials, having had to be dragged into allowing women to have safe abortions, and breezily allowing women to simultaneously lose their sex based rights via self ID, characters like him were allowed to roam free, be lauded by press and state and abuse at will.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 20/09/2021 13:44

Policy discussions based on "my friend", "as a mother", "my friend's child" "I heard someone at conference say"
We all use personal experiences at times. But when you're in a role that means making policy that affects the whole population, to base it on what your friend's child's experiences are is frightening

As a society with key policy-making organisations and institutions, we don't have a well thought out approach to the evidence of people with lived experience. Yes, it's essential but it should not acquire the tyranny of a sacred caste that can't be questioned and whose needs trump those of everybody else or other groups.

Neither lived experience nor anecdotes about it should be beyond challenge. And nor should it be exempt from the overall modern take: In God we trust, everyone else should bring data.

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