Woman's hour now...!

[WarriorN]

Eerr what now?

They want our views! Go vipers go!!!!

Just a quick point that with most other things it's personal direct experienced being shared which is impactful.

The friend/ friend of a friend etc is just not the same.

It's not helpful to women or children to say, for example, 'you should be free to walk wherever you like at night'. While this is morally no doubt unarguable, it's not practical, and risks again (I think) putting an emphasis on what women should and shouldn't do and even on encouraging women to think that because it is their right to walk down any dark alley anywhere at night, they should do so to prove how 'strong' they are

I’m finding this tricky to navigate with my teen DD. She needs information. Yet when we spoke about not walking alone later at night (in a park or on the street), it made her feel discouraged to be female. That she had ‘lost out’ by being the more vulnerable sex, the preyed upon. It made her think about how life would be easier being male.

How to talk about being vigilant or ‘safer’ but still affirm her in being female?!

It’s really crap for our young girls these days. Not helped the massive prevalence of porn or even the ‘rape as entertainment’ reinforced most nights in our tv viewing or role model influencers with filler lips and plastic surgery ideals. I’ve seen in DD’s school groups that girls either wear hyper sexual clothes / tons of makeup OR as someone said upthread (Nice?) they adopt a male name / declare themselves trans or NB… Are these now felt to be their only extreme options?

I don't think it's right to restrict girls to only going out in daylight, or only going out with a chaperone. I always went wherever I wanted and walk alone at night quite freely. I know lots of women wouldn't do that and I understand not wanting to take that risk. I actually know lots of women who won't go anywhere alone, which I find a bit sad. I decided early on in life that I was willing to take the risks because my freedom was more important to me than my safety. And I would add that while I have experienced rape and assault, it has nearly always been by men I knew in an environment that should have been safe. The only exception was Cairo, where I was sexually assaulted multiple times in broad daylight.

When younger, if I went out with friends we always had rules about not leaving anyone on their own, walking home together etc and when we were in our twenties, texting when you got in. It was a good system, and I think it probably still is. Nowadays there is also uber and other apps that can help everyone keep track of each other.

I think all you can do is be honest that it's a risk. It's just a risk doing anything in the world as a female. Learning to be good at assessing risk is a key skill of independence. Learning self-defence can be useful too, even just some basic principles, like that running away is nearly always your best option. Don't walk home in high heels. Wear shoes you can run in. Young males are the demographic most vulnerable to attacks by strangers, but they tend to be more willing to take the risks. I wonder if part of that is because we are constantly telling girls that they are weak and vulnerable? I remember a couple of times as a young teen when there were curfews for girls/women because a rapist was in the area. No curfew for rapists, of course!

it made her feel discouraged to be female. That she had ‘lost out’ by being the more vulnerable sex, the preyed upon. It made her think about how life would be easier being male.

One of the detransitioned women who went on the American programme about it (and most were cut out) described hearing how awful it is for women as a diving force behind her desire to transition. Awfully, she felt feminism painted a terrible picture.

It's great that the baby rad fem movement is getting going especially via tick tock and twitter. Im not sure tick tock and Instagram were around when she was a teen.

Whilst social media has definitely added to this dire situation for young teens, hopefully the next generation will help to level it.

Young males are the demographic most vulnerable to attacks by strangers, but they tend to be more willing to take the risks.
They're more vulnerable to getting mugged or beaten up, not raped. I think most rape victims would choose to be mugged than raped.
I'm not being facetious; being attacked in any way messes with one's sense of self, but rape is a totally different ball game.
The risks that young men face are different to those that women face. Therefore they make different decisions. I don't think women limit themselves out of unjustified fear.

I honestly wouldn't advise my son to walk down dark alleys / walk through parks ar night / get blind drunk or drugged

It's not a sex thing

Depending on where you live, young men are especially at risk of being stabbed and murdered.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-58113038

Oh I'm definitely not saying it's unjustified fear. Obviously it's really frightening.

I do think though that boys are encouraged to learn to 'handle themselves' with regard to risk, whereas girls are encouraged to avoid risk. We don't even teach girls to assert boundaries with people in their family, let alone negotiate risks outside the home.

Learning to be good at assessing risk is a key skill of independence

This is probably the best approach. Agree that someone tangentially known is more likely of concern, but other advice will still include the suggestion not to walk down a dark alleyway at night.

The wider picture is also the challenges in affirming the positive aspects to being female in a world where the negative narrative is just everywhere.

@ArabellaScott

That sounds so frightening, Embarrassing. Children should not be exposed to that.

Somebody pointed out to me recently that women have always been told to be quiet when they talk about danger/their boundaries/consent/defense. The message might change but the end result always seem to be to undermine women's ability to protect themselves.

I had that when I tried to raise the topic at my Book Club. The other Naice women were mortified at my talking about such a "vulgar" thing . Or so I felt. No engagement at all.

One of the detransitioned women who went on the American programme about it (and most were cut out) described hearing how awful it is for women as a diving force behind her desire to transition

Yes this is the struggle. To warn / teach about assessing risk but doing so in a way that doesn’t inadvertently reinforce some message about it being awful to be female.

It’s likely a too blunt dichotomy, and they’re real lives will be much more nuanced than what’s represented on SM, but the young girls DD knows do seem to broadly fall into one of two camps i.e. super sexy vs. NB/trans. Both agendas being driven by those who are doing our young vulnerable girls absolutely no favours.

This looking after yourself topic is one I have many strong views about. There's loads of threads for years.

EVERYONE should feel safe walking the streets etc. Not just women.

Loads of people feel unsafe esp in areas that are out of the way. Or after dark. Or in certain streets/ areas generally. Waiting at some stations or bus stops that have no one about. Walking past areas where groups gather. Like the tube station for one of my early jobs that had loads of drunk/ drugged men outside who were sometimes loud and sweary/ arguing / approaching people and asking for money and not taking sorry for an answer.

Everyone should feel safe on the streets. It's a clear statement of how things should be. No it won't ever happen but it's something to work towards.

Plenty of men women and children feel anxious etc walking in certain places even in daylight rush hour. That's shit.

'Young males are the demographic most vulnerable to attacks by strangers, but they tend to be more willing to take the risks. I wonder if part of that is because we are constantly telling girls that they are weak and vulnerable?'

Imo opinion it's not that we don't take risks. It's that the risks we take are different. And not recognised as risks in the same way as eg driving a car way too fast.

Or at least. The risks we take are seen as risks but ones that are not recognised as women taking risks in the same way that men do. And seeing them in that light.

They are seen as very different to the way risk taking behaviour in young men is viewed. Not an undesirable fact of young people's behaviour in the same way.

Risks girls and women take-
Well we all know them don't we.
Going home with someone you met in a pub/ club.
Traveling home on foot/ public transport late at night.
Going with a friend to meet some blokes that you don't know very well.
Getting drunk full stop.
Getting a lift from a man who isn't either a cab driver or someone you know really well.
Also getting a cab with the wrong sort of cab driver.
Going on dates with men from OLD you don't really know who they are.
Not behaving patiently and courteously while trying to get rid of a persistent man.
Going anywhere away from people on your own eg walk in woods.

Etc etc.

They are all risks that we take. And even if the risk is exaggerated which for us it usually is. The fact it's been hammered into us that we are prey. And the way society says don't do this too much risk. Means that women and girls who do these things many do it knowing that it's seen as a risk and they are going against the 'rules' to keep safe.

This frustrates me tbh.

We are fed the idea that we are vulnerable so graphically and constantly. Plus of course in the news there are constant stories about women having the most awful things done to them by men.

Where is the balance though? I'm not sure it's in the right place. And why is the list of rules to keep safe so long? Because in the end it's always our own fault. We erred and paid for it.

Does it all reflect reality?

Get registered cabs. (Ad campaign in London while warboys was active). And no guarantee with registered cabs anyway.
Don't leave your drink unattended! (Alcohol is by far the most common method used to make a woman more vulnerable. Buying doubles when asked for a single etc. Plying with shots. All that stuff).

Etc etc

This poster was up, maybe 12 feet tall in the tube station on my way home from work a few years back.

It was where I stood to stand a chance of a seat.

Very crowded busy station.

Millions of people would have seen it.

What message does this give?

To women.
And also of course to men.

Disgraceful.

And ironically it was while warboys was active.

Imo opinion it's not that we don't take risks. It's that the risks we take are different.

Agreed. And if young women were out on the streets as much as young men are, then the stats might be completely different. Are young men more at risk because they're outside and young women aren't? It's not comparing like with like.
Also, bearing in mind opportunistic violence, a lone male drunk and walking home at 2am might attract fewer opportunists than a lone female drunk and walking home at 2am. He might look like more work to overpower, and the rape motivation is unlikely to be there. So he's at less risk.
It would have to be worked out as a percentage of whatever number of people habitually walk home drunk on their own at 2am, with the same frequency (ie they do it every Saturday night) and a similar route (same level of overall crime in that area).
If three men get attacked out of a thousand, versus one woman out of ten, then men aren't at greater risk.
All we know is that in terms of numbers young men make up most of the victims of non-sexual assault by a stranger. It's not even half the story.

NiceGerbil that poster is pure victim-blaming and is totally salacious. How long did it stay up?

Anyway yes a lot of opinions.

Again it doesn't relate to the no bars for males to use what were areas etc for females.

Unless the idea is- and I wouldn't be surprised. That OBVIOUSLY using any kind of space for women could be a risk as any old male could come in.

So it's only sensible to always go in pairs and never allow girls to go to eg a shop toilet or a changing room in a gym alone.

Which I suspect is where it'll be headed as it fits with all the things we're already supposed to do.

IME of being a very reckless teen.

Most men are fine. Wouldn't cross mind to attack a girl/ woman even if just two of them somewhere quiet.

A minority of men are not fine and this risk that is always mentioned is of serious sex offences. Rape murder.

The police as we all know need to up their sodding game and across the whole justice system.

Get these men out of circulation and you have prevented masses of terrible harm. Maybe even got them before they do anything really awful.

We can't tell which is which generally. And the things that I have experienced were generally in situations not on the list of things where women should take care. That is not unusual.

The cautions are all about the bogeyman. Why does society not go on about all the other stuff? Why is it all strangers/ out late/ drinking. I think there's some kind of other attitudes in society about how women should behave in this massively.

@FlyingOink

NiceGerbil that poster is pure victim-blaming and is totally salacious. How long did it stay up?

Months :(

I waited with it in my face every day after work.

Fucking massive poster.

No way was I giving up the chance of a seat to avoid it! It certainly gave me plenty of time to feel angry!

And YY sex offences are measured separately from violent offences

In the end both are massively under reported, not of interest to the police, and if not serious are seen as just one of those things.

I've been in a situation when out in a big group. Where a massive random pissed bloke attacked 3 of the boys. One ended up with abroken nose. They called the police I was... It wouldn't have occurred to me. I've never thought the police round here were well. Just would never call them for something like that.
They said what happened. Police found bloke in pub. Said look really there's nothing to be done here and went away.

The man did attack one of the girls in the group incidentally and she had a suspected fractured jaw. That would have been me... I like I said I was very reckless when young!

And in fact it's MALE VIOLENCE that is accepted as just one of those things.

And that is the real problem.

Police found bloke in pub. Said look really there's nothing to be done here and went away.

It's funny isn't it, how in over-policed societies like the US (which is more dangerous than here, don't get me wrong) police have the time to pull motorists over for blown bulbs, but in the "policing by consent" UK, police don't have the resources to make an arrest for assault because it would leave them short on shift while they process the arrest.
I mean, an assault with witnesses, if it was in a bar or a town centre street almost certainly on camera, but is it worth taking two bobbies off the beat for the night? Nope.
I'm not sure I want more police, not to the extent that say Italy has (I think they have four times as many police per head of population and again no reduction in overall crime relative to the UK).
Would we see as much violent crime if perpetrators were dealt with on first offence?
And where the US has a (terrible) for-profit prison system, they can hand out mega sentences, whereas almost everywhere else on earth, it costs money to lock violent men up so the sentences are shorter (and there's no rehabilitation because money and no training because money etc).
We really don't spend a lot of money on this as a country.

Truth be told the police actually make me feel a bit anxious. I've drummed it repeatedly into my nephews' heads to not engage with them at all and keep it moving!!!

Wrt to the discussion on danger even things like take an uber home or ask a male friend to accompany you don't really guarantee safety and for many women have actually put them in harms way.

Awful. She can't answer a bloody question. A vague script where she refuses to say 'yes'. Why? Because she knows the tide might turn and she'll one day have to do a reverse ferret.

Women! Calm down dears! Stop being so reactive and toxic! FFS.