Woman's hour now...!

[WarriorN]

Eerr what now?

They want our views! Go vipers go!!!!

Oh my God I'm laughing now. I'm on the bit where she's asking about policy and age.

XD

Oink I don't think any of those things sound good.

I think there needs to be serious push from highest levels to treat VAWG with the seriousness it deserves. Our laws are pretty strong as well.

It's the old not seen as a priority higher up (votes).

And come to think of it contraversial when FFS it shouldn't be (victim blaming, these things are trivial, what about this other thing and that other thing, it's a people problem not fair on men. Oh and of course false allegations, why should victim be anon not fair, ruins lives, his word against hers etc etc etc).

Yes this is the struggle. To warn / teach about assessing risk but doing so in a way that doesn’t inadvertently reinforce some message about it being awful to be female.

The thing is, it's in the news, constantly. And news is more accessible now. It's around us constantly.

We can teach all we like, real life information and stories dominate.

At least Disney twigged they needed to up their game on female characters 10 years ago.

I think there needs to be serious push from highest levels to treat VAWG with the seriousness it deserves. Our laws are pretty strong as well.

100 %

And I do think, strategically speaking, serious research and input into how boys become men who are violent, and tackling this. Men need to sort the men out.

NiceGerbil

Back in the seventies when I was a teenager, I used to go to school dances, then clubs and work socials. Blokes like myself used to escort the girls back home, make sure they were OK. We were told how to behave, it was part of our upbringing, we respected the girls. In the eighties I noticed violence increasing in clubs, to the point where people were being bottled or stabbed.
Something changed and I don't know what it was.

I think there needs to be serious push from highest levels to treat VAWG with the seriousness it deserves.

Yep, this. (And that poster is horrific. I'd have complained, for several reasons.)

I think male violence is the next thing that the gov should throw resources at. We're so innured to it, the daily horror is almost unacknowledged.

It needs to be named, we need robust stats (most people are horrified when the bald data is shared with them - to be honest most don't believe, say the stats on sexual assault. I think most people still think on some level that it's roughly half and half. They don't realise that rape/sexual assault is almost exclusively a male crime).

When I've quoted these stats I've been accused of misandry, shortly followed by men sliding off into talking about how women lie/manipulate/fabricate.

Every time. Good men. They can't handle the very clear evidence.

I'd like to see a very, very clear information campaign on male violence.

@ArabellaScott

I think there needs to be serious push from highest levels to treat VAWG with the seriousness it deserves.

Yep, this. (And that poster is horrific. I'd have complained, for several reasons.)

I think male violence is the next thing that the gov should throw resources at. We're so innured to it, the daily horror is almost unacknowledged.

It needs to be named, we need robust stats (most people are horrified when the bald data is shared with them - to be honest most don't believe, say the stats on sexual assault. I think most people still think on some level that it's roughly half and half. They don't realise that rape/sexual assault is almost exclusively a male crime).

When I've quoted these stats I've been accused of misandry, shortly followed by men sliding off into talking about how women lie/manipulate/fabricate.

Every time. Good men. They can't handle the very clear evidence.

I'd like to see a very, very clear information campaign on male violence.

This.

To make anything truly work, the deep social messages constantly going out that reinforce sexism, that it's not ok to say things that make men feel bad, it's not ok to talk about women's needs or issues or even increasingly to use the word women (unless you're talking about people born male), that women's needs don't matter, that women's issues and diversity and voices are silly and wrong when they conflict with male interests, that women don't need safe spaces because these conflict with male interests -

until the underlying attitude towards women is addressed, that culture sees and openly talks about them as being less valuable, less important, fine to treat in this lesser discriminatory way that it is definitely not ok to treat men with - nothing will change.

VAWG is based in the belief that it's ok to treat females like this, there's an entitlement to do it, and its socially acceptable because they don't really matter like males do. They're not fully and equally human. And this is why VAWG is not fully pursued in law.

@andyoldlabour

NiceGerbil

Back in the seventies when I was a teenager, I used to go to school dances, then clubs and work socials. Blokes like myself used to escort the girls back home, make sure they were OK. We were told how to behave, it was part of our upbringing, we respected the girls. In the eighties I noticed violence increasing in clubs, to the point where people were being bottled or stabbed.
Something changed and I don't know what it was.

What changed is that more women started going into the workplace, looking for financial independence and autonomy outside of the home, which some men saw as a threat to the status quo.

Many of the men you describe, who gladly hold the door open for women and walk them home are happy to do so and see themselves as gentlemen, and will be perfectly polite and respectful towards women.
Just so long as those women know the pecking order, and stay in their place - which is beneath them.

@NiceGerbil

This poster was up, maybe 12 feet tall in the tube station on my way home from work a few years back.

It was where I stood to stand a chance of a seat.

Very crowded busy station.

Millions of people would have seen it.

What message does this give?

To women.
And also of course to men.

Disgraceful.

And ironically it was while warboys was active.

Jesus wept. That's some victim blaming bullshit, that poster. Awful. And the image is so distressing.

Read 18 pages, maybe not every word.

Im not trying to speak for Joanna Belcher. This is just my reaction to her situation. That the GRC clause required her to consent to her husband's transition and she did not want that burden. The oppressive dynamic screams through every word. She was forced into a process that required her to say 'I am ok with this' for her marriage to continue. But she is not ok with it. She could hardly say it more clearly. And she may refer to the process as the oppressive bit, like a good Liberal. But to me, is is not the process that has forced her to live with something she's not ok with.

it's not ok to say things that make men feel bad, it's not ok to talk about women's needs or issues or even increasingly to use the word women (unless you're talking about people born male), that women's needs don't matter, that women's issues and diversity and voices are silly and wrong when they conflict with male interests, that women don't need safe spaces because these conflict with male interests -

Yes, I don't think I'd seen the antidote to all of this laid out as clearly (sometimes in 'object lessons') as I have in FWR. Where women can say openly they are prioritising females and be blunt. Even (buttergasp) rude. Quite bracing.

Many of the men you describe, who gladly hold the door open for women and walk them home are happy to do so and see themselves as gentlemen, and will be perfectly polite and respectful towards women.

Earlier this year, in response to Sarah Everard, several women posted some personal stories on Twitter (and I've not been able to find them again although I'm fairly sure I linked them on an AIBU thread). One of them discussed how a good friend had walked her home from an evening in the pub because a rapist was active in the local area. He was the rapist.

Another woman had been in a longstanding, good friendship group with a man who was popular with everyone. A week after their previous get-together, the man was arrested for killing a sex-worker.

Both of these women commented that these men were friends and had acted appropriately towards them.

women started going into the workplace, looking for financial independence and autonomy outside of the home

Depending on the socio-economic group, women have always worked, it wasn't valorised or valued, but they worked.

After the late 1970s, I wonder how much the equal pay legislation (still grumbling on as we know by the European ruling earlier this year), and the sex equalities act that forbade quotas for recruiting women to professional degree courses and profession opened up opportunities that had been legally blocked or prohibited before.

Did this begin to shift dynamics?

Abusers always ramp up when they start to lose control.

CreepingDeath

I started work in the mid seventies in local government. I would say the split between male and female was 50/50. We had transparent pay scales, we socialised together. There were women in management positions. When I left there twelve years later and worked in the private sector, I was aware that there were very few female partners in any given company and that many of the male partners had the most attractive and intelligent female PA's.
I haven't personally known any mates to be violent to the partners, although I have known two who were completely misogynistic.
I wonder if there has been a rise in VAWG since the start of the internet, where porn is so readily available? Is it because films and TV are showing more violence and scenes of a sexual nature.

I wonder if there has been a rise in VAWG since the start of the internet

I'd be surprised. VAWG is one of those things that were not discussed and for which women were instructed to accept the responsibility. And to whom could they complain given the attitude of the police and legal system and the lack of support services?

@WarriorN

Yes this is the struggle. To warn / teach about assessing risk but doing so in a way that doesn’t inadvertently reinforce some message about it being awful to be female.

The thing is, it's in the news, constantly. And news is more accessible now. It's around us constantly.

We can teach all we like, real life information and stories dominate.

At least Disney twigged they needed to up their game on female characters 10 years ago.

I believe that basic info about avoiding doing things which are definitely risky should be standardised and pushed in schools pub doors etc.

One unified message would be more impactful (and cheaper!) than loads of different orgs having a go and often cocking it up.

The main point is there is NO NEED for it to be sex specific and let's face it often aimed at women.

Any situation a woman is vulnerable a man is too.

So things sort of thing -

Don't leave bag open or carry anything important in pockets that don't fasten.

Minimise the use of quiet/ deserted streets if walking home alone after a night out.

Getting very drunk is incapacitating. The consequences can include; Reduced inhibitions meaning you do things you will regret; having your night spoiled by being asked to leave/ not let in; Becoming involved in arguments or even fights; Being less able to judge situations and people's intentions...

Always look out for your friends.

Joining a group of people you don't know, especially going to parties or their homes, is a risk. You have no idea who they are or what they're like.

Accepting lifts or getting in an unlicensed cab to get home is risky.

....

That sort of thing.

Boys/ girls/ young men and women all face risks in similar situations. When the risk to a girl of sexual attack seems to be the massive focus. A bloke in those circs is at risk of robbery, violence. And also less commonly, sexual attack.

That's how I would do it. I think that's the right away to do it.

Having so much reminding us we're vulnerable to serious sex offences. And very very reminding men to take care as well. It's unhelpful to both. It gives both sexes messages which imo are really poor ones to put out to society all the time. So yeah. That's what I think.

@andyoldlabour

NiceGerbil

Back in the seventies when I was a teenager, I used to go to school dances, then clubs and work socials. Blokes like myself used to escort the girls back home, make sure they were OK. We were told how to behave, it was part of our upbringing, we respected the girls. In the eighties I noticed violence increasing in clubs, to the point where people were being bottled or stabbed.
Something changed and I don't know what it was.

I'm nearly as old as you! Teen in 80s though :)

I'm sure you are very nice and of course having someone walk you home is more relaxing than on your own!

Thing is though.

The boy then walks home alone after? Blokes are at risk of Street violence etc. Who looks after him? I mean if he's 16 and you know not big and tough then he's vulnerable himself for sure. Depending on where it is I suppose.

The other thing is and this is depressing. That the chivalrous bloke who offers to see you home. Then has you by himself outside. It's a situation where women/ girls do get assaulted. Or even IME they want to come in (when moved out of home!) and won't take no for an answer. Can I come in for a coffee? It's so cold! Come on I need to call a cab. I'll freeze out here! Just let me in to call a cab etc etc. And that is a pretty tricky v situation for the woman.

So yes I'm sure you and your friends- like most blokes ime- are nice normal genuine etc. Not all of them though. And of course we can't tell which is which.

And in those days the vast majority who experienced that would no way report it.

It's horrible having to weigh these things up all the time. Company/ lift? Can I trust him? How well do I know him? I mean tbh it's so bloody boring but it's drilled into us to automatically assess. Even the reckless ones have heard it all a million times, and choose to ignore.

IME interestingly it was in the mid 90s that this sort of fug of male aggression permeated all over the place.

I was an alternative type so stuff like that makes a difference probably as well, and where you live.

Not sure on the independence/ work thing.

When I was young 'domestic' violence was still a private matter. Not talked about, police didn't take it seriously. Hidden away.

I think iirc that rape was not really mentioned on the news etc? It was seen as a very shocking term. Back then I think generally you didn't see pregnant women on the telly. Anything to do with periods, sex including sex offences, pregnancy, birth was not generally mentioned it was ick. No ads for sanitary protection on TV.

I was young talking late 70s early 80s could be misremembering. But definitely it was just not you know. Talked about.

Marital rape was only made a crime in England / ?UK in the early 90s.

As a girl/ woman the general idea if you were victim of a sex crime was to keep it to yourself.

So when looking at stats the different social situations really need to be in the picture.

Things like when Jimmy saville happened there was a massive surge of reports of historical child sexual abuse.

Complex picture to analyse really.

I doubt that VAWG has got worse on the whole. It's just more out in the open than ever before.

[quote DevonTF]The LibDems have a full guide of how to deal with women AKA transphobes. It is a great read !

lgbt.libdems.org.uk/en/page/debunking-transphobic-talking-points-longer-version#:~:text=debunking[/quote]
The thread has probably moved on, and likely other people have commented on this, but I’m catching up and came across this post.

Just wow!

So many answers, so little clarity. The production of something this extensive is very suggestive of a really deep level of paranoia.

If this issue is a perfectly reasonable human rights discussion, it should be straightforward to make your argument in a way that was easy to understand. A bit like the position of those protecting women’s rights, or indeed gay rights or the rights of black people.

@NiceGerbil just seen your post about taking Gender out of keeping safe. yes I think that's a good strategy.