Woman's hour now...!

[WarriorN]

Eerr what now?

They want our views! Go vipers go!!!!

If men never never choose jobs to put themselves in positions where they can abuse victims easily then the entirety of the DBS system is wholly unnecessary. I am sure that the government will be only too delighted to find somewhere else where they can make great savings.

In my city Libdems and Tory are neck and neck. All right thinking people ie my family and friends would vote Libdem. There is NO WAY I will vote for them now. No way.

@PickUpAPepper

If men never never choose jobs to put themselves in positions where they can abuse victims easily then the entirety of the DBS system is wholly unnecessary. I am sure that the government will be only too delighted to find somewhere else where they can make great savings.

I haven’t said “never”. I’ve said “not always”. Which is why DBS isn’t the only element of safeguarding.

I think the narrative of “bad men who always would and good men who never would” is simplistic and dangerous. Both groups exist no doubt, but there are a hell of a lot of grubby grey men in the middle who will as long as they think they can get away with it.

@Blibbyblobby. I think you’re misunderstanding my post. The quote failed - doubled up the pp I was quoting. Jimmy Saville definitely arranged his life around access - look at the way he became indispensable to Stoke Mandeville hospital and the disgusting abuse he was allowed to get away with. Do you really think that was just opportunistic ? And although I think your point about entitlement due to the power imbalance is a very valid one, what you seem to be saying is that if we can redress the balance, then women won’t need safe spaces. I think this is too simplistic. There will always be abusers of one sort or another and given that there’s no way to identify them, we will always need safe spaces. Your last quote wasn’t from a post of mine and I don’t buy into that notion.

It’s men who are are calling the shots, regardless of womens’ very real fears and objections. I know I’m going to get flamed for putting it like this but I can’t think of any other way, and I apologise if it causes offence, but as far as I’m concerned, unless gender reallocation surgery has taken place, you may be wearing a dress, but you’re still a man and you have no place in a woman’s safe space.

I haven’t said “never”. I’ve said “not always”.

Actually you said
I am not convinced by the idea that men will adopt jobs or positions solely in order to seek out girls/women/children to abuse them. Sadly, I think it's more likely that these are crimes of opportunity
at 12:05 and people are disagreeing with you.

@FlyingOink

I haven’t said “never”. I’ve said “not always”.

Actually you said
I am not convinced by the idea that men will adopt jobs or positions solely in order to seek out girls/women/children to abuse them. Sadly, I think it's more likely that these are crimes of opportunity
at 12:05 and people are disagreeing with you.

Ah, fair enough. I expressed it badly. But I do think it’s important to recognise that abusers can come in through a door legitimately and still abuse once inside.

Even Saville - people are talking about his access to hospitals and yes, he absolutely engineered that, but I’m thinking about him back in his DJ days when society was happy to “reward” him with teenage girls.

And really, the same with Wittgenstein.

Access to young women is still seen as a perk and entitlement of successful men.

@PaleGreenGhost

I don't get it when "I've got a friend with a trans child" is a gotcha. As if we don't know children caught up in this. As if that, along with single sex provisions, isn't the issue driving our activism on this subject. So, you've got a friend whose child is painfully reacting to the homophobia and sexism endemic in our society? And you are supporting them how?

Exactly!!!

Just listening on catch-up. WH was terrific today - some really powerful and compelling features. Well done Emma and team. Also sending positive vibes and love to Julia and Charlie.

Just listened to WH too, I wish Emma hadn’t let Christine waffle on so much. She wasted so much fine time waffling (I assume it’s a media training strategy) and there were some key questions that went unasked. Better than nothing though. Thank you Emma.

Slight derail but not sure I've seen this asked before. If Scotland do bring in self id could anyone cross the borders to get self id or would it only apply to people living in Scotland for x years. When a Scottish self id person comes to England for a holiday/work do they have to revert to their pre self id? I assume not as they will have all their documentation changed?

Not Fine time, just time

@FemaleAndLearning

Slight derail but not sure I've seen this asked before. If Scotland do bring in self id could anyone cross the borders to get self id or would it only apply to people living in Scotland for x years. When a Scottish self id person comes to England for a holiday/work do they have to revert to their pre self id? I assume not as they will have all their documentation changed?

Someone asked something similar about getting a self-id GRC if born in England. The birth certificate paperwork is issued by the English County so perhaps not that easy to do. Can a Scottish GRC board tell Lancashire County Council to reissue a birth certificate, for example? Or reissue a wedding certificate as a same - sex marriage even though it might have happened in 1974? Can the names be changed?

FlyingOink
I have so many questions. So would that mean you can only self id in Scotland if you were born there. I hope these questions don't have to be answered and self id in Scotland doesn't happen.

Thanks for the links to Sounds! I’d about given up on the BBC, but I believe that Emma Barnett is an actual journalist.

Christine Jardine: “And with the Liberal Democrats … that, and (inaudible), we stand for every minority, we stand UP for them, we believe that we are all equally entitled to the protection of the law, to the understanding of society.” Nice borrow there from the reddit/incel/Anti-Woman Activist community: we stand up for every minority. So men, not women?

We are all equally entitled to the protection of the law. Yes, and to achieve that in the UK there are certain extra provisions built in to the law to combat historical and systemic inequalities which have not vanished over time. Ed Davey wants to take these legal protections away from women, and it sounds like Jardine does too. Jardine (and Layla Moran, who said similar yesterday) are too new as MPs to have been there, but Ed Davey voted FOR the Equality Act of 2010. I would like him to demonstrate how the situation in the UK for women and girls has improved so dramatically in the past eleven years that no women and girls now need the protections intentionally put in place for them back then (many of them carried forward from previous more fragmented laws). I would like a journalist to ask him this. And this time, I'd like an answer that does not rely on "a big boy did it and ran away!"

The Lib Dems’ “Guide to Debunking Transphobic Talking Points” - which DevonTF posted above - is an illustration of how that party have led a very toxic campaign regarding self-ID and other related issues. Jardine calls for taking the toxicity out of the debate and letting everyone talk, but the Lib Dem policy is exactly the opposite. You can see how the entire document - that TITLE!! - is designed to shut down any discussion and comes from the starting point that anyone who disagrees with you - even when some of your claims are demonstrably false and many of your explanations wildly straw-manned - is "transphobic" and must be stopped.

The Scottish Lib Dems also ran a campaign telling people that there are only two or three women out there posting ALL of this stuff online and wtiting all the letters and such about women’s sex-based rights (under pseudonyms) and pretending it’s a large group. I apologise to the other two people here, then, because I have definitely NOT been pulling my weight! How can Jardine excuse this, and say she/they want to detoxify the debate? If she doesn't know what her party has been doing, maybe she doesn't know enough to speak publically on these topics on behalf of her party.

At least Jardine unequivocally condemned the threats against Rosie Duffield. The horribly depressing and completely inhumane “if she didn’t want threats and violence she shouldn’t have said/done/posted/liked x” is so normalised now you just expect it.

overall if was a good programne today with thd other topics as well.
well dond emma barnett!

Link to another thread and discussion of self id Scotland (you do have to have been born in Scotland)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4353945-Article-about-Sturgeons-Gender-Recognition-Reform-Bill?msgid=110968129

Sorry edit born in Scotland or normally resident (no explanation for that). Off to the other thread now.

What if you identify as being born in Scotland?

@SeaRabbit

What if you identify as being born in Scotland?

@ARoombaOfOnesOwn

Carrie Johnson is said to be pro-TRA, too.

Yes I think Carrie and Henry Newman (advisor) are woke, Munira Mirza (head of policy) is strongly anti-woke.

Carrie comes over as massively woke. Not well thought-through.

@FlyingOink

there are far fewer good men than we think, because many are bad men that just haven’t had an opportunity they felt was safe enough to exploit I can agree with this, and still believe some predators make life plans to make their abuse easier. These men will stop at nothing.

The whole 'there is no clash of rights' is long over. If women talking about rights is 'transphobic' then obviously those rights existing are a threat to the desired progress of the trans political lobby.
100%

I absolutely agree with this.

I had this discussion with my husband.

I asked him “If there were suddenly no laws to try to stop violence against women, rape and sexual assault, what percentage of men do you think would continue to not do those things? Do you think there would be a rise in them?”

@LongBlobson

Clearly many predatory men would pretend to be trans to gain access to vulnerable women or children.

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/the-psychiatrist/article/gender-reassignment-5-years-of-referrals-in-oxfordshire/6B5F217162ABD9B3189F2EB82787034E

"...seeking gender reassignment to facilitate or normalise paedophilia. This latter small group described gender reassignment as a means by which to increase their intimate contact with children, which they viewed to be more socially acceptable in a female role."

And I can't find the link easily but it's been on other threads, of the prison psychologist (?) on record talking about his experience of sex offenders claiming trans identity to try and access female prison.

This isn't about trans people, this is about predatory men (sex class), whatever their gender identity.

This is what Dr. James Barrett, President of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists said about sex offenders pretending to be transgender in his evidence to Maria Miller's Transgender Equality Inquiry in 2015.

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this. These vary from the opportunity to have trips out of prison through to a desire for a transfer to the female estate (to the same prison as a co-defendant) through to the idea that a parole board will perceive somebody who is female as being less dangerous through to a [false] belief that hormone treatment will actually render one less dangerous through to wanting a special or protected status within the prison system and even (in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention) a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard.

data.parliament.uk/WrittenEvidence/CommitteeEvidence.svc/EvidenceDocument/Women%20and%20Equalities/Transgender%20Equality/written/19532.html

Only read about half of the thread.

Have never listened to WH.

from MN i am well aware of what happened with WH when Jenni was there.

That a long standing team of presenters went more or less together.

A will loved program with audiences who had listened through years and change was unwanted and tbh upsetting. Well loved institution in that format.

New presenters ok.

In a new job. Esp filling those shoes. You can't bosh in and do whatever. You need to win the confidence of the team behind the prog. You need to have listeners get used to you. You need to be competent but not raise any questions as to suitability.

Takes time.

Once you are settled. Feet under table. Whole team trusts you as a good colleague, a professional, totally competent, great ideas, understand audience and their interests etc. Are settled with delivering the program, finding your style for that format. Etc etc. And if course the listener numbers are good/ as well as can be expected after the upheaval.

That's when you can start to bring this sort of thing in.

That's my view anyway.

Once

Thanks, OldCrone, that's the one I was thinking of.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4353901-Radio-Scotland-Kaye-Adams

A tw said on live radio that if a woman was harmed it’s ok

Then the person Kaye Adams presenter said that a tiny minority of women who self exclude from events as they are religious are not important

This is coming at you in other parts of uk.

Take notice this is not a drill