Woman's hour now...!

[WarriorN]

Eerr what now?

They want our views! Go vipers go!!!!

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

The trans rights movement is about removing rights from an oppressed group (women) and bestowing them on the oppressors (males). It is just not comparable to anything that has gone before.

Also about reversing the roles of the oppressor and the oppressed (middle-aged white fathers can, with impunity, forcibly team themselves with the most oppressed of all historical times and have a new reason to insist that everyone else should be quiet and listen to them).

Who is "the most oppressed of all historical times"?

Blibbyblobby

Do you not think it is likely both? Some people are opportunistic and will offend given the opportunity. Some are more calculating and will go to excessive lengths to improve their opportunity to offend. Both groups would have an easier life under self-ID of course.

Who is "the most oppressed of all historical times"?

It's a fluid category that can be trumped at will when necessary or it serves an individual or political purpose.

Have just seen the write up on today’s women’s hour on bbc sounds not a peep about this mornings discussion of sex and gender debate so it can’t be easily searched or found by others - urgh! So frustrating - why hide now?

@JustcameoutGC

I read somethign that made it really clear why the trans rights issue is not comparalble to previous civil rights issues

All previous civil rights movements were about rebalancing of rights between a priviledged group and a minority / oppressed group.

• Northern Ireland
• Anti-slavery
• Gay rights movement
• Suffragette movement

The trans rights movement is about removing rights from an oppressed group (women) and bestowing them on the oppressors (males). It is just not comparable to anything that has gone before.

Exactly why to conflate with gay rights is a stupid idea (straw man?)

Though they'd say their oppressed as they can't go into a woman's toilet (except they do.)

Of course there's real transphobia; seven hex, a transwoman, uses male loos despite full transition and receives vile abuse as a result. Seven would like third spaces or men to stfu.

This has been shifted onto women's plate, it's women's fault and issue, circumventing the fact that it's men who need to change their actions and accept transwomen.

There's also the issue that TW want to access women's spaces for other reasons but I won't go into that.

It's an entirely different issue for Transmen and one that's NEVER. Discussed.

They usually pass better. But obviously may need to access female toilets when menstruating as there's non in the men's. And yet may be more aware of their visual impact on women who've been abused by men as they look male.

Obviously placing a trans man in male prisons would be an absolute safeguarding fail for them.

*theyre

I just KNEW this debate would shortly arrive at this station; Telegraph article in which Tom Harris argues that many of the people who want Duffield to face suspension from the whip and accuse her of transphobia have the same views of women and their rights as they do towards jews. In essence they are using Rosie as a proxy target to undermine Starmer's leadership and advance a hard left agenda.

It's behind a paywall but in case anyone here does have a subscription.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/09/20/starmers-silence-rosie-duffield-speaks-volumes/

Oooh I wonder what Jenni thinks of today's show...

No comment but probably says it all....

re transmen - as a bit of a tangent - i actually find it difficult to believe that transmen really are accepted by men as men. It's just that they're not a threat to men so men don't really need to worry.

I really cannot imagine that the transman Freddy (??) who had a baby is really accepted as a man. But the issues around Freddy are still focused on how women respond to Freddy - because its a complete non starter that men would ever actually accept that "men" have periods and have babies.

The complete double standards of how trans men are treated in this debate compared to transwomen is really just such a bleedingly obvious own goal showing that SEX ACTUALLY MATTERS

Absolutely and interviewers should be introducing this to the discussion.

Why aren't trans men able to compete in men's classes?

Why can't transmen be placed in male prisons?

Why don't gay men want to date a transman?

Jenni rt those tweets right after the WH show.

I was good friends with a transman, although we've drifted out of contact now. He was completely accepted as a man and it was several years before I twigged he was anything other than biologically male.

One real difference, it seems to me, was that he just got on with living his life unremarkably. I am absolutely aware that there are transwomen who do the same, but there does also seem to be a cohort who wish their trans identity to be very visible.

Looking forward to listening to the interview later.

Carrie Johnson is said to be pro-TRA, too.

Yes I think Carrie and Henry Newman (advisor) are woke, Munira Mirza (head of policy) is strongly anti-woke.

@ARoombaOfOnesOwn

Carrie Johnson is said to be pro-TRA, too.

Yes I think Carrie and Henry Newman (advisor) are woke, Munira Mirza (head of policy) is strongly anti-woke.

Carrie is also supposed to be close to Nimco Ali. In practice may bend with the opportunities.

@ChloeCrocodile

Blibbyblobby

Do you not think it is likely both? Some people are opportunistic and will offend given the opportunity. Some are more calculating and will go to excessive lengths to improve their opportunity to offend. Both groups would have an easier life under self-ID of course.

Yes, I’m sure both scenarios happen. My point is don’t ignore the opportunistic model. I’m not saying any abusers were innocent and lovely men who only became abusers because they had an opportunity, I’m saying I think our culture of sexualising women and teenage girls makes many men quite comfortable with committing abusive acts in their minds, and some will go on to act when an opportunity occurs.

[quote suggestionsplease1]Neither lived experience nor anecdotes about it should be beyond challenge. And nor should it be exempt from the overall modern take: In God we trust, everyone else should bring data.

Absolutely. Have a look at this evidence that shows the adoption of gender identity non-discrimination laws (self ID for use of bathrooms, changing rooms etc) in localities in Massachusetts were not associated with any increase in criminal incident reports. The study examined crime rates in Massachusetts before and after adoption of public accommodation laws that include gender identity protections.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z[/quote]
Callie Burt's comments on the paper are well made out and I'd agree with the concerns about the methodology, sample size, analysis etc.

publons.com/review/8261257/

It's unfortunate that the authors of the study declined to engage with a fellow researcher to resolve the issues that were raised. It's disappointing that, as so often, the editor of the journal has so far not enforced a response from the authors.

The Lib Dems say this because they get huge donations from a drug company that sell puberty blockers. (from a very reliable source).

Listening to the third time and Christ, the gaslighting with the story of the wife whose husband was transitioning and the suicide crap.

That mp needs to read transwidows

pmk

[quote suggestionsplease1]Neither lived experience nor anecdotes about it should be beyond challenge. And nor should it be exempt from the overall modern take: In God we trust, everyone else should bring data.

Absolutely. Have a look at this evidence that shows the adoption of gender identity non-discrimination laws (self ID for use of bathrooms, changing rooms etc) in localities in Massachusetts were not associated with any increase in criminal incident reports. The study examined crime rates in Massachusetts before and after adoption of public accommodation laws that include gender identity protections.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z[/quote]
“Data come from public record requests of criminal incident reports related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms to measure safety and privacy violations in these spaces. This study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces.”

So surely that also means that self id does nothing to reduce the frequency of assaults on trans people, removing the main argument for it other than personal validation?

Lib Dems in Scotland have a number of women who have complained about misogyny and one was brave enough to raise it at conference. She has since left the party because of the misogynistic abuse she was subjected to.

Christine demonstrates a bias towards her own family and friend's needs and it seems that has had a role in forming policy. The new Lib Dem leader has also spoken in Holyrood about his links to a child who was gender non conforming.

So, is that what's at the root of this total madness at the party? The people at the top can't think further than #BeKind because of their own family stresses; a sexist culture and a need to keep the funding from the pharmaceutical who profits from puberty blockers?

Cos, this is a real car crash. They'll be totally sunk.

I wish Spitting Image was still on the tv.

The LibDems have a full guide of how to deal with women AKA transphobes. It is a great read !

lgbt.libdems.org.uk/en/page/debunking-transphobic-talking-points-longer-version#:~:text=debunking

@WarriorN

Listening to the third time and Christ, the gaslighting with the story of the wife whose husband was transitioning and the suicide crap.

That mp needs to read transwidows

The suicide claims make me so angry, just another form of bullying.

I know of a late stage transitioning transwoman who claimed several attempts, despite having a medical background, just to get his wife to capitulate. She is still in a bad place mentally, having 'accepted' she's now in a same sex marriage etc, but who gives a fuck about the wife eh?