'Mumsnet is a perfect example of how bigotry and hatred can become amplified in an echo chamber' Owen Jones FB post comment section

[SafeMove]

The full quote is:

'Mumsnet is a perfect example of how bigotry and hatred can become amplified in an echo chamber - I'd bet at least half of the anti-trans sentiment comes from people who have a driving need to protect their children and loved ones, but their feelings have been targeted and manipulated by lies.'

AIBU to wonder who are the people targeting mumsnet users and manipulating us with lies exactly? Or are we just targeting and manipulating ourselves with these lies because we are an echo chamber? Also interesting on this comment section - only 'Karens' are anti trans, so we have trans rights supporters telling people to be inclusive and tolerant, whilst they get to be exclusionary and hypocritical? Smells fishy to me...

At this point he's just enjoying trolling women, isn't he? He's managed to find a section of women to troll and be rewarded for it with clicks and pats on the back by his mates.

Odious little man

Seriously I can't stand the bloke but how have so many people misunderstood the thread title?!

I'm pretty sure the title has been changed, because it originally referenced Owen Jones look at my post, the first after the OP, with now no mention of him in the title.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Seriously I can't stand the bloke but how have so many people misunderstood the thread title?!

I'm pretty sure the title has been changed, because it originally referenced Owen Jones look at my post, the first after the OP, with now no mention of him in the title.

The thread title still references OJ?

Ummmm why was my post deleted?

The thread title still references OJ?

That's really weird, I could have sworn it had been changed when I last looked, I read it several times!

Anyone who disagrees with him is obviously insane.

Not sure what's what but assuming he liked/ commented on the post that said this?

I mean shocker.

Whoever said it or liked it is a patronising misogynist arsehole.

The idea that women can't think for themselves is just horrifically sexist.

The echo chamber thing comes up over and over and it's blatant nonsense. You can't edit or delete posts. You can't block anyone. This is an open forum that anyone can join and post on.

I don't understand how so many people just essentially. State bollocks as fact with no qualms. Depressing.

I'd bet at least half of the anti-trans sentiment comes from people who have a driving need to protect their children and loved ones,

Eh? So they admit children need protecting from the ideology???

Buy we're still wrong somehow?

I'd like to bet OJ reads all of these posts and seethes.
Then he has a winge on twitter.
He comes over as very over sensitive and not liking to be challenged on his views.
Pathetic really. Truly pathetic.

I don't understand how so many people just essentially. State bollocks as fact with no qualms. Depressing.

I think it's very much inspired by Trump. It's very strongly reminiscent of his style of engaging in public discourse. The expectation that their wafflings will just be accepted without challenge comes from him too. Trumpian wankers.

If that's so, then Owen, hi! I have a question for you.

What had you done to your copy of Shon Faye's new book to get it so scuffed in your Malta holiday photo? Did you throw it across the room half-a-dozen times?

What we need is more women that are willing to bow to the needs of people born male - who'd have thought it, eh? Go Patriarchy!

I have been thinking about this a fair bit. Although Jones didn't say this himself, the comments are on his page, by his followers and he does not remove them. In fact the person who wrote the comment in my title has written TRA essays in the comments. There is a hardcore group of about 5 TRA's who attack any challenge. I was called a Karen and a TERF and the comments are still there. So OJ is absolutely fine with his followers attacking anyone who challenges the TRA. He supports bullying basically so his 'tolerance' is agendered. As long as you are tolerant in his way, that is fine. More interestingly however is that the GC comments that do challenge the TRA get quite a high proportion of likes. So I think there are a fair few silent GC supporters out there, but they see the abuse the handful of us who challenge TRA's hypocrisy get and keep quiet. It works too. It is hard to challenge it and it does make yiu want to retreat. Bullying men getting away with what they are used to getting away with as always.

Actually I’d agree it is an echo chamber here to some extent, in that the same few people are posting the same points over and over again and the people who raise opposing points don’t stay around (with a few notable exceptions, and while I am opposed to some of the things they endorse I do respect them for staying around and taking part in what I’m sure is feels like a very hostile place sometimes).

But that’s a function of

A) those few points being the core of the argument against genderism so there is simply no point in talking about wider nuances and details when those core problems remain unresolved. I think everyone on here would love to move on and talk about how trans people can be safe, supported and happy without overriding female safety, support and happiness, but until the TRA groups step up, stop demonising all people with legitimate and personal concerns as right wing bigots on the spurious grounds that simply to have these concerns is in itself proof of bigotry, and politicians start include female lobby groups as well as those for LGBT and mixed-sex “women” in consultations, and both groups admit the problems which acceding to TRA demands are creating for female people, that constructive dialogue cannot happen.

B) There being very few places these concerns can be raised publicly. If there’s only only place these things can be said, that place is going to be where they get said

C) No one is coming here with new and convincing, or even challenging, arguments supporting the anti-female version of genderism that is currently dominating the media and politics. So we don’t get an evolving debate, we just play Whack-a-mole on the same bust assertions, logical fallacies and false beliefs popping up again and again.

I know female people daring to show pattern recognition ability is perceived by some as a 'hate' thing, but it's very hard to miss how much some male people really enjoy abusing, bullying and oppressing female people. They're not actually that bothered about the reason, but any 'no' or boundary a female person even hints at usually does it.

Good old ancient belief that women don't actually own their bodies or have souls or anything, they're just service units for the real humans.

Fuck that Owen. The Romans are gone. Move on.

The idea that women can't think for themselves is just horrifically sexist

It's also the historical way men have ALWAYS viewed women.

'Good old ancient belief that women don't actually own their bodies or have souls or anything, they're just service units for the real humans.'

This is an amazing quote. Please can I borrow it? I am always banging on about the fundamental issue is that women are seen as less. This quote is much kore hardhitting.

Pure projection.

Borrow whatever may help Safe , we're all of us stuck facing this awful onslaught together.

Extending my comment B) There being very few places these concerns can be raised publicly. If there’s only only place these things can be said, that place is going to be where they get said above:

I read a lot of stuff coming from the “TWAW, they are the most oppressed group, differentiating between TW and [so-called] cis women is the same as racism, including TW in all female-only provisions has no impact on female people” side, so I realise that much (not all) is being written by people with genuine intentions who are simply, by dint of being young, male, privileged or misinformed, naive about how many males treat female people and inured to how differently male and female people are treated by and therefore experience and act within society.

I believe my values and theirs are pretty much the same. I think by and large this great social experimenting and challenging of gender is a good thing if only it can be uncoupled from the current implementation that is disempowering female people and pushing gender non-conforming people into making personal medical changes in an attempt to resolve wider social problems. I don’t want to be on the other “side” across some huge unbridgeable chasm, I want to be on the same side working out the best solutions.

I would love to able to raise my concerns in those arenas and have them respectfully engaged with in search of mutual understanding and common ground, but I don’t because everyone I see trying it gets shut down with TRA dog whistles, slurs and catechisms that prevent further thought.

So I post here, with what I hope is as much respect and attempt to understand as I would if I were speaking to those people directly, to make sure there is at least somewhere that concerns and alternatives to the dominant anti-female model of genderism are being stated.

Challenging gender roles is fab. Feminists general have always been pushing that.

Reducing sex to a feeling in a person's (man's) head is obscene. The linking of gendered presentation and behaviour is extraordinarily regressive.

Working to erase all the terms to refer to the two human sexes. And to 'queer' all the protections that women and girls have won.

To enforce gender> sex. And stop sex being mentioned considered known etc anywhere ever is properly Orwellian.

To protest anyone using the words woman girl (and female is going) to be used when discussing anything related to female primary and secondary sex characteristics is extreme and misogynistic.

To insist we are referred to by our reproductive parts is totally dehumanising and insulting. Menstruators. People with vaginas, ovaries. Gestators. Our reproductive biology is the reason for millennia of oppression. Being property. To be bred. To be raped. To be subject to restrictions on our lives. To be punished harshly for transgression including execution.

Men have always referred to us as body parts not people.

Oi you with the tits.
The one with the legs.
Hole
Gash
Along with terms judging us for our assumed sexual conduct. Most being negative. Lady. Whore. Slut.
And then others applied when we do not adhere to our proscribed role.
Bitch. Harridan. Aggressive. Angry.

The idea is to erase the ability of women and girls - females. As the most obvious grouping of different sorts of humans. Globally and forever and existing in all mammals and many other animals. To erase any way for that massive and globally oppressed forever group. To name ourselves as a group.

That is an attack at the most fundamental level. To bar any discussion organisation analysis activism of what is happening with women and girls. Ever. Anywhere.

And there are so many things that show in neon lights that attacking women and girls specifically is the point. And also that it is not coherent in any way as it's never that I've seen to be applied globally. Just in some countries.

The fact that even hardcore supporters of the new language are not consistent in when they use it is to me the most obvious pointer to this being a misogynist attack. Rather than being based on real belief in the new language. Or a deep belief that it is the right and only way to do things.

One minute it's menstruators. Cervix havers. Generally when it's about women and girls in the UK/ English speaking world. It's the new language. Gestators etc. Incidentally this ties in handily with the new terminology in surrogacy.

When it's overseas. It's women girls meaning sex.

That's nonsensical. Either new words or not. Chopping and changing? Telling.