'Mumsnet is a perfect example of how bigotry and hatred can become amplified in an echo chamber' Owen Jones FB post comment section

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The full quote is:

'Mumsnet is a perfect example of how bigotry and hatred can become amplified in an echo chamber - I'd bet at least half of the anti-trans sentiment comes from people who have a driving need to protect their children and loved ones, but their feelings have been targeted and manipulated by lies.'

AIBU to wonder who are the people targeting mumsnet users and manipulating us with lies exactly? Or are we just targeting and manipulating ourselves with these lies because we are an echo chamber? Also interesting on this comment section - only 'Karens' are anti trans, so we have trans rights supporters telling people to be inclusive and tolerant, whilst they get to be exclusionary and hypocritical? Smells fishy to me...

It's true though. Anyone who has a different opinion is shut down.

Absolutely zero response to my comment that I identify as a Karen and a TERF, so what do they make of the whole 'we are slurring the behaviour not the identity' point. This is the issue though, when you point out that it's all rainbows, be kind, inclusivity and love everyone until you simply state that you believe there are only two sexes and one of those sexes rights need defense and protection. Then its slurs, exclusion and accusations and when the hypocrisy is noted, this pours on more rage.

If I don't I stand up for womens and girls rights I am not standing up for myself or my DD.

It's true though. Anyone who has a different opinion is shut down.

Well they get disagreed with, anyway, then they flounce. Such is life.

He can’t get his head around the idea that women can come to their own conclusions

Owen, sweetheart, I don't give a flying fuck through a rolling donut what you think of MN and the women who post here.

I'd guess that the reason most of us feel the way we do is because we "educated ourselves" and the more we did the more we saw through the lies and the bs and the submit "be kind", and the more that happened the more we decided that will not be shutting up. Those days are gone.

And as pps said, where's the ire and the outrage about sites like the farms with thread including the charmingly titled "Most physically repulsive " ?

Seriously, we all see you for the sad wee misogynist that you really are. And we will not be wheeshting. Get over it.

@HappyVagabond

It's true though. Anyone who has a different opinion is shut down.

Nope

They get asked to explain their opinion

They know they can't guilt trip the men on Kiwi Farms/4Chan etc. But they think it might work on the silly mummies, or their woke teenagers might give us a hard time. The contempt these people have for women talking to other women about a whole range of stuff is palpable. How very dare we not believe this bullshit.

@Antinerak

Of course the trans rights supporters can be exclusionary to hatred and karens. That's the whole point of supporting trans rights- we don't support the anti-trans sillies. You'll understand it one day x

Karen, eh?

Let's talk about that. Karen was originally, AFAIK, a term used by black women in America to talk about racial dynamics between black women and white women in the US, e.g. between retail staff and customers.

It has now been appropriated by white men, to denigrate any woman who is assertive about anything for even a second. Including black women. I have seen teenage white trans activists (like you?) mock the black American woman Karen Davis for being called Karen many, many, many times.

But wait, there's more! In the UK, Karen is more typically a working class name, and a woman called Karen in Britain probably has worked in retail herself and has more stories of abusive customers (especially male ones) than the men and women glorying in mocking her for her name.

In my town facebook group, we now have discussions being derailed every time a woman named Karen posts if she dares to say anything more contentious than "I like kittens". Every single one of the people popping out the Karen memes to opportunistically bully a woman is white. Some women are having to change their names on social media because of this incessant barrage of "wit".

And all because white people can't leave other people's slang alone.

Go deal with your misogyny and racism, please. Educate yourself. Do better.

@Antinerak

Of course the trans rights supporters can be exclusionary to hatred and karens. That's the whole point of supporting trans rights- we don't support the anti-trans sillies. You'll understand it one day x

Have you any idea how this puerile "support" language plays out in the real world? Your "support" is of absolutely no value or interest beyond a miniscule number of people that know you, and even those people, if you decided one day that you didn't "support" them because you were sulking over something they did, they would likely not notice or care.

It's all so childish.

If he could just accept that people are posting about women’s rights he might get somewhere. The problem is that he doesn’t want to acknowledge the impact of biology therefore he can only view this through the prism of hatred and fear.

@HappyVagabond

It's true though. Anyone who has a different opinion is shut down.

disagreement is not 'shutting down'

@Antinerak

Of course the trans rights supporters can be exclusionary to hatred and karens. That's the whole point of supporting trans rights- we don't support the anti-trans sillies. You'll understand it one day x

One day you'll realise that you have sold your entire sex down the river, for the sake of supporting a small group of people who don't care about you or your safety and will happily trample on your rights to make sure their ego and feelings are placed front and centre. Do you really think you are a better person for dismissing people who question and worry about this as 'haters and Karens and silly'?

You might want to think about which part of yourself is such a people pleaser that you'll screw yourself over to make you look like the 'good supporter'. You are doing yourself, women and girls zero favours with your 'support' of people who dislike women so much that they shut down any conversation about this by immediately screaming 'TERF! KAREN!' etc.

It's true though. Anyone who has a different opinion is shut down.

Usually they are asked to back up what they say with facts, studies and statistics. If posters are unable to do that, I guess they might feel they are being 'shut down' because other posters on the thread will simply not believe them.

I, personally, am always disappointed that there is never any robust evidence presented. Many of us try to read most of what is posted.

Unfortunately, lately all that is posted are links to opinion pieces from social media influencers. And frankly, if your arguments come directly from them (and I have seen numerous of those types of posts lately, no critical analysis, just trope lifted from social media) you might not like the analysis that results.

Dear old Owen certainly knows what a jan is though doesn’t he when he was asked if he’d date a TM….

And it’s Pro women not anti trans. In the UK at least Transwomen have exactly the same human rights as everyone else as they absolutely should. what they cannot have are women’s rights because they’re not women, they're trans women

@Helleofabore

Spot on. And I find if you do present the facts, studies and statistics you get even more nastiness directed at you. Show a man he is a fool etc.

It wasnt Owen Jones who said this, it was a comment underneath a video he did of an interview with Shon Faye.

However

The concept of mumsnet as an 'echo chamber' is an interesting one. No one is 'blocked' on Mumsnet for having a different view, you will only get deleted or banned if you break the very specific talk guidelines. It is a public forum where anyone is free to post any opinion they like.

If it is an echo chamber that is not because alternative views are 'not allowed'. It's because those with alternative views are challenged, and not even that robustly to be honest, can't back up what they are saying with a further argument, and then disappear. I have seen it happen countless times on threads on this board. Like someone upthread said, the threads on Brexit, Covid, even Meghan and Harry are full of different views, and of people backing up their views when challenged and so there is a huge amount of back and forth debate on those topics.

That doesn't happen on this board nearly as much. Why not? Because when a 'trans women are women, you are all bigots' brigade rock up, as soon as anyone asks them even a simple clarification question, they can't deal with it and off they go! I always appreciate the ones who at least try and stick around for a bit!

@HappyVagabond

It's true though. Anyone who has a different opinion is shut down.

The tone is no more aggressive than a thread about Covid or teacher’s pay. MN is full of people strongly arguing a point of view. That has always been the nature of the site.

‘Shutting down’ isn’t possible because there is no way to block posters or restrict replies.

It's true though. Anyone who has a different opinion is shut down.

If by 'shut down' you mean, asked to back their opinion up with evidence and further arguement, then yes, that does happen a lot here. It's what happens when grown ups have a debate.

I couldn't give a flying fuck what Owen thinks.

The 'echo chamber' comments about here are always just ridiculous. It's not Twitter where you can make a comment and then block or 'mentioned only' the responses - a perfect example of an echo chamber. Here you actually have to back up your comments with actual evidence, argue your case and (gasp) face actual disagreement. If you can't, that says more about your argument than anything else. The regular posters on here have asked repeatedly for a good debate but we don't get it. We get increasingly hyperbolic posts followed by a flounce or a plop and run.

And 'echo chamber' comments from those who espoused 'no debate' is laughably hypocritical.

An echo chamber?

I've been asking for years on here, through various name changes, if someone can explain to me how the medical profession are diagnosing which are the 80-85% of children and teenagers who will desist from gender confusion post-puberty, and which are the 15-20% who will persist in identifying as the opposite sex. I genuinely, seriously, urgently want an answer to this, because it would be hugely unethical if a proportion of that 80-85% were being medicalised and subsequently operated upon unnecessarily (which does seem to be happening, given the growing prevalence of detransitioners).

Not one person has been able to answer my question in 5 years+. Not. One. I have, and continue, to actively invite those involved in supporting young people with gender dysphoria or gender confusion to reassure me that there is a robust, relatively failsafe diagnostic process.

Not one reply.

If it is in any way an echo chamber, it's because people who should be able to answer these questions are choosing not to. Or can't.

Which do you think it is?

It's interesting that the focus is always mn when there are other forums with GC women who are never mentioned because they don't fit the demographic they're going for. I post more there than here so I don't want to name the forum I mean and risk losing the freedom there, but some of you might know where I mean.

@Antinerak

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

A fairly typical post from those who have nothing but denigration, disparagement, distraction, and projection of the hatred they accuse women of.

Of course the trans rights supporters can be exclusionary to hatred and karens.

I rarely ever see MNers discuss or display hatred toward trans people. Disagreement is NOT hate, despite many people being told that it is. And nor do MN posters use slurs as you have done.

Strangely, many people who regularly post on MN have trans people in their lives and simply don't hate them. This is usually downplayed or ignored.

I would say that from reading many threads, as well as participating on them, the only places that MNer's want to 'exclude' trans people, is to exclude males from spaces, roles and opportunities that are needed by females. That women are not forced to accept males in situations where they need females. And that includes females that are transmen and NB.

That's the whole point of supporting trans rights- we don't support the anti-trans sillies.

And this is the irony really. Many women accused of being 'anti-trans' are supportive of trans people where sex does not matter. ie. in many aspects of their life.

Arguments like this seem to come from echo chambers that again MNers are accused of having.

Don't be unkind - he likes 'broody lesbians '.

Of course the 'echo chamber' accusations are pure projection. Because in the years I have been here, I have not noticed many posters declaring something 'unsafe' for them to read unless it was something triggering for sex abuse.

I also have never known a thread where evidence was linked where that evidence was ignored and not reviewed and analysed. Other posters may not like the analysis and they might have posted it to prove a point that is not supported at all by what they posted, but posters here do not shy away from reading and processing any evidence that is posted.

I do not think that phrase 'echo chamber' means what activists think that it means. It is yet another term where the meaning has been changed to fit a narrative that is riddled by untruths.

Still banging on about Mumsnet, after all these years? He needs some new material.
Crikey, he'd fall off his high stool if he heard the witchy bigotry on those gardening threads...
I lack the eloquence for a proper rebuttal but it basically amounts to Piss Off Owen, You Massive Boring Fanny.