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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

317 replies

LockdownLisa · 14/09/2021 21:57

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Fitt · 15/09/2021 21:09

What's your deal? If they identify as a woman (if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body), then leave them be.

What does a non binary brain look like in a scan? It it like chocolate fudge brownie ice cream, womens brain with chunks of man brain.

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/09/2021 21:09

Otherwise it's like the Spanish Inquisition.

Totally missed our HRs torture and execution department, asking someone their biological sex (and gender identity if you please) are perfectly reasonable questions.

nannannanana · 15/09/2021 21:10

@headintheproverbial

I think a really good solution is to make all the men's loos unisex and the women's loos single sex. Job done.
I agree but I bet Peter or Sandra or whatever will still want to use the female only toilets
Helleofabore · 15/09/2021 21:15

What's your deal? If they identify as a woman (if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body), then leave them be. This may not be one of your thoughts on trans women, but GCs calling all trans women rapists and that's fine, so by that logic, aren't all GCs rapists?

It seems you have a logic and a reality hiccup here.

I don’t believe anyone has yet proven that there is a female or a male brain. There is certainly no diagnosis based on this as far as I know. So, please post your links for this so we can all see it.

Your ‘all GC are rapists’ doesn’t even register as being anything but extreme hyperbole. In the UK, rape requires a penis.

It is worrying if you are out there believing these ginormous untruths…..

MonsignorMirth · 15/09/2021 21:17

@Fieldofgreycorn

Field you think trans people are likely to lie about their sex? Why?

I just don’t think it’s anyone else’s business. For someone just getting on with life, their medical history or ‘birth sex’ if you like, is no one else’s business. And certainly not where toilets at work are concerned.

Sorry, might be just me, but I didn't understand whether your response was "yes" you do think trans people are likely to lie about their sex (when asked), or "no" they aren't.

Could you clarify?

midgemagneto · 15/09/2021 21:20

Brain scan?!?

I guess we need a mass scanning program to correctly sex everyone's brains

LockdownLisa · 15/09/2021 21:24

OK, leaving aside Alphabay's interesting ideas on what a woman's brain vs man's brain looks like for now...

Thank you for all of your advice and information, I very much appreciate it. I'll answer a few of the questions:

  • I don't think I'm in any danger from Sandra in the loos. However, I don't think I would be in any danger from any of my other male colleagues, but I don't want them using the women's toilets either. That may be a cultural thing, but it's how I, and the vast majority of people feel. If that wasn't the case, why have single sex toilets been standard/essential in all public buildings for 100 years or so?
  • I'm not going to use the disabled toilets. I won't be driven out of a provision designed for me.
  • I can't imagine any of the men in the office would have any issue with Sandra continuing to use the men's toilets. They've barely changed their appearance, just their name (so far). It's just Sandra's preference.
  • The toilets are used by everybody in our building, not just our office. Most of them won't be aware that Sandra is transgender and will just think 'why is there a man in the Ladies?'
  • I'm not a union member but as most of them believe TWAW anyway, I'm not sure how much use they'd be.

However, I'm still no further forward. Some laws appear to conflict each other, so it would be difficult to complain about this based on that - I could quote the Equality Act 2010 and the HR department could say 'Ah, but...' and how can I respond when it's all so woolly?

I've been asked if this is the hill I'd choose to die on. I really don't know. My heart is saying 'yes' as the Self ID proposals have been a massive concern of mine for a while, (I've been a Labour voter for decades but won't since Keir Starmer pledged to introduce it if elected) but until now, it's not affected me directly. My head is saying 'keep your head down, don't make a fuss'.

So I just don't know. But the longer I leave it, the harder it will be to stop it, as the precedent will have been set.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 15/09/2021 21:25

I just don’t think it’s anyone else’s business. For someone just getting on with life, their medical history or ‘birth sex’ if you like, is no one else’s business. And certainly not where toilets at work are concerned.

Nice to see that you believe that males who identify as women should simply ignore any distress their use of the female toilets would cause. All ok, as long as the male gets their needs met.

And if they are one of the few that pass, with the help of extensive surgery, gait training and having a naturally small build including hands etc, they should simply crack on knowing that if a colleague happens to find out and it traumatises that colleague, too bad. That traumatised colleague needs to sort out their own trauma. As long as that male gets what they need.

Of course, OP and other colleagues know this person is male.

NiceGerbil · 15/09/2021 21:28

There are a couple of questions not answered that I'd really like to get Vladimir and alpha's views and anyone else who shares their views.

  1. Transitioning covers a wide range.
At one end there needs to be no changes at all to appearance presentation etc. I doubt changing name is considered essential. All this talk of hormones etc is beside the point. It avoids the fact that this person may look dress etc exactly as they did before. And after all why not? Women can and do have short hair and wear suits etc. So why this talk of hormones and surgical removal of testicles etc? It's irrelevant.
  1. How do you think men would feel if Shital who they know well as a colleague was now a man called Ramesh and was came into the gents while they were at the urinal? Comfy? Relaxed? Really?
  1. When people have more fluid gender identities. And are woman one day and man the next. And use the according facilities. That's fine by you as well? The arguments seem to incorrectly assume a certain level of chance when transitioning. I don't know why you think that. It makes your arguments seem a bit weak tbh as the points made do not reflect real life.
Chloemol · 15/09/2021 21:29

Personally I would speak to HR and ask them to clarify and if they say the colleague can use the ladies I would just use the disabled loo myself. If anyone questions it I would say I am not comfortable that a woman only space has been invaded

CharlieParley · 15/09/2021 21:34

@Fieldofgreycorn

Male pattern violence is more ingrained in male people as a class.

Have you any evidence that isn’t specifically related to testosterone?

There is evidence that (transsexual) trans women who transitioned after 1989 are no more likely to commit violent crime than non trans women, and females to males who take testosterone are more likely to commit violent crime than females.

No.

Here's a comment I posted earlier on Djeine at al:

This study showed unequivocally that the cohort of male transsexuals analysed were at the exact same risk of being convicted of a crime as the male control group.

While it did show for the early cohort that male transsexuals were more likely to be convicted than the male control group, that was not true for the later cohort.

The study explicitly notes that male transsexuals were compared to controls from their birth sex. No confusion.

Male rate of crime compared to male rate of crime. The control groups were always compared to the cohort of the same sex.

For the avoidance of doubt that means male transsexuals were compared to male controls and female to female.

And no, the study did not find that during the early period female transsexuals committed crime at the same rate as the male control group. It found that compared to female controls, their risk was 700% higher of being convicted of a violent crime but 40% lower compared to male controls. For all crimes the figures were 400% higher and 30% lower respectively.

As for the second period, here is what we do know:

The study compared risk on the basis of sex. The second time period shows the risk for both sexes together to be just slightly lower overall (10% less likely to be convicted than control groups of both sexes).

Because the male risk of being convicted is so much higher than the female one, the one thing we can say with confidence, is that the study conclusively showed that not even male post-op transsexuals reached female rates of criminality.

And at no point in the study is there even the slightest suggestion that as you claim "trans women's decreased to the level of the women's control group". They did not.

Very helpfully, if you dig into the accompanying information (not mentioned directly in the study) you'll find two tables provided as Word documents where the authors compare outcomes for the transsexual cohorts first to their "final" sex and then to their birth sex.

This shows that compared to female controls, male transsexuals over the entire period are six and a half times more likely to be convicted of any crime and 18 times more likely to be convicted of violent crime.

Unfortunately, although the authors calculated the risk for each time period separately, they do not provide the numbers for the latter period by sex.

However, very helpfully Dhejne herself clarified the issue in an AMA on Reddit in 2017. You can read her full comment here.

In this comment she confirms that male transsexuals exhibited a male pattern of criminality for the entire period.

She says:

If one is only intrested in transwomen data is only available for the whole period. For only assigned med who had transition 1973-2003 they had committed more crimes than cis women and more violent crime than cis women. [...] Having a male pattern means that they did not differ regarding any crime or violent crime if compared with cis men.

In the interest of a respectful debate in good faith, may I suggest therefore that it would be helpful if you could read the study again, familiarise yourself with the actual findings and clear up your confusion so that you do not risk spreading misinformation as you have in this thread.

Full citation:

Dhejne C, Lichtenstein P, Boman M, Johansson ALV, Långström N, Landén M (2011) Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden. PLoS ONE 6(2): e16885.

doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

CharlieParley · 15/09/2021 21:35

Aah for an edit button. It's Dhejne et al

ArabellaScott · 15/09/2021 21:36

they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body

Glitterball - actual scan of woman's brain
Football - actual scan of man's brain.

Science yay!

DdraigGoch · 15/09/2021 21:39

@MingeofDeath

The "transwomen are at risk in the male toilets" trope pisses me off no end. There is no evidence of it ever happening. If there has been any man on TW attacks please link to it because I have not found one single incident.
Quite. I don't know what the TRAs think goes on in the men's toilets but it's much more boring than that. You go to a urinal, unzip, urinate, zip back up, (hopefully) wash and dry hands, and then leave.

Unless someone is very obviously looking sideways then no one is at any risk at all. In fact there's not really any attention paid to any other occupants at all.

A poster on a thread a while back related an anecdote. A very camp gay man went into a public toilet at the same time as a bunch of rugby players. The poster was a little worried about what might happen. Her concerns were completely baseless as it turned out. One of the rugby players farted, the gay man muttered "virgin" and they all burst out laughing.

Other than in schools (where bullying in toilets is a real issue), the idea that people get beaten up when "just going for a wee" is absurd. It really is something that "never happens".

NotFrozen · 15/09/2021 21:40

OP, I think you sound transphobic. Raising this at work will not end well. Some women on the mumsnet thread agree with you but I think most women in the real world will think you are being ridiculous

Fitt · 15/09/2021 21:41

Starting to use women's toilets seems to be what transition means to men. It's a watershed for them. The act of going in that door is them "living as a woman". Not for the women that see him in there, it's just a man acting out a performance.

I would definitely put in writing to the HR director that you find it distressing and intimidating that a man has started to use the women's toilets.

I don't think you need to say anything else other than register your distress and intimidation.

NiceGerbil · 15/09/2021 21:42

Crime
Sex offences
Violence
Genital surgery
Hormones
And talking about a situation totally different to OPs
Etc

Are all massive diversions.

In this workplace this person's colleagues have worked with them, maybe socialised with them for maybe some time maybe a long time depending.

It's not a stranger.

So both the women and men might understandably have some time needed to adjust even if they totally accept they are now a woman and that's that. (They don't but for the sake of this).

There will be complexities. Depending on job and how long their old name will be on loads of emails, documents, files, projects or whatever. People will need time to merge the two in their minds and get used to new name pronouns etc when they are likely to have plenty of reminders of their old name and pronouns around.

Changes like this take time because human brains take time to make adjustments like that. I mean Christ I remember when I got married it took me a few months to stop using my old surname and that was MY name!

This side of things seems never to be considered. That with the best will in the world it takes time to make this sort of change.

Why is this side of things never considered?

Jellycatspyjamas · 15/09/2021 21:43

@NotFrozen in what way is she transphobic? I can’t see where she’s expressed a fear or hatred of transphobic people - perhaps you could enlighten me?

Fitt · 15/09/2021 21:43

@NotFrozen

OP, I think you sound transphobic. Raising this at work will not end well. Some women on the mumsnet thread agree with you but I think most women in the real world will think you are being ridiculous
So what are we? Transphobic or ridiculous? The word transphobic is ridiculous, and you are ridiculous for using it.
Congressdingo · 15/09/2021 21:44

@Alphabay

>Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like: 'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

What's your deal? If they identify as a woman (if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body), then leave them be. This may not be one of your thoughts on trans women, but GCs calling all trans women rapists and that's fine, so by that logic, aren't all GCs rapists?

A brain scan? You sure?

This is the funniest thing I've read today. Well done.

NiceGerbil · 15/09/2021 21:45

And I just do not get why this person wouldn't use the mixed sex accessible toilet.

I mean they must know that it's a big change and even if all women are aok that it's a big change and they might feel uncomfy for a while.

So even in best case scenario it would be obvious that leaving a bit of time before hitting the ladies would be better for everyone.

ArabellaScott · 15/09/2021 21:47

NotFrozen, have you seen any of the polls asking what loos transwomen should use? It's very much not the view of most people that women should budge up and allow males to do as they please. Most people understand the need for single sex spaces; hence the law to protect them.

Passmeamenuatthetottenham · 15/09/2021 21:51

What's your deal? If they identify as a woman (if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body), then leave them be. This may not be one of your thoughts on trans women, but GCs calling all trans women rapists and that's fine, so by that logic, aren't all GCs rapists?

Wuh?

Passmeamenuatthetottenham · 15/09/2021 21:52

On what basis does this male get to use the ladies toilets? Because they feel like they should be able to? That's all this is isn't it, that's what it boils down to?

And women are not allowed to say no.

CharlieParley · 15/09/2021 21:53

@NotFrozen

OP, I think you sound transphobic. Raising this at work will not end well. Some women on the mumsnet thread agree with you but I think most women in the real world will think you are being ridiculous
Well that's where you're wrong. Poll after poll has shown that the majority of women do not agree with sharing female-only spaces with males (regardless of their identity).

And how privileged of you to just completely ignore the needs of the many women who cannot use a mixed-sex space for cultural, religious, ethnic or psychological reasons.