How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

[LockdownLisa]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

Where employers already offer gender-neutral toilets and changing
facilities, the risk of creating a barrier for transgender people is alleviated

And instead, insuperable barriers are created for female people.

It's been explained over and over again on this thread why this is a problem, so either you're not reading the thread or you're not able to comprehend the issue.

The whole world does not revolve around male people, their wants, their needs, their feelings and their rights. Female people have rights too. Including to have access to toilets.

Women denying access to males on the basis of their sex is not the beginning of a negotiation.

There's no, what about this one, how about if we do that, show me the studies that prove this.

The answer's no.

Sorry. No, thank you.

@Artichokeleaves

*Where employers already offer gender-neutral toilets and changing facilities, the risk of creating a barrier for transgender people is alleviated*

And instead, insuperable barriers are created for female people.

It's been explained over and over again on this thread why this is a problem, so either you're not reading the thread or you're not able to comprehend the issue.

The whole world does not revolve around male people, their wants, their needs, their feelings and their rights. Female people have rights too. Including to have access to toilets.

Not me. I just quote the rules.

And those who vary gender during the week use whichever one they feel on that day.

And being trans requires no changes to anything about how you look present at all.

Rightyho.

This person could use the accessible facility.

I can't understand why they would not do that.

Yes I know using accessible is rubbish if you don't need it but they've always by used by men who want a shit in my office so that point is a bit moot really.

@VladmirsPoutine

What do you think your trans colleague will do to you in the toilet?

You say you are the "lowest of the low" in terms of rank so I can't imagine choosing this particular hill to die on.

If you do e-mail them saying:

'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

What if they write back:

"The women's toilets."

What do you do then? All because your colleague would like to use a toilet in their workplace.

Eh? Why would someone being transgender mean they default to the women's toilets? Are you very new to this topic?

But the OP and this thread are discussing a 'transgender' person, who is quite likely to have changed nothing but their pronouns.

That is possibly a different matter. Particularly if they ‘transition’ in the work place. I think each situation has to be dealt with in an appropriate and proportionate way. But I know there are likely to be different ideas of what that is.

Are you suggesting that a trans person who has only been known in a job as their transitioned sex and using facilities for decades in line with that transition should now be stopped? How are work places to be 100% sure? Should HR departments now be arguing with people over what sex they are if they suspect someone is transsexual? You’re not a woman! Actually I am. No you’re not. Yes I am!

How would you actually prove it? “Well I think you look like a man!” And just for toilet use? I think what you’re suggesting could become absurd.

Field you think trans people are likely to lie about their sex? Why?

Brilliant posts @Ereshkigalangcleg @CharlieParley @Datun
This transperson is known to colleagues- wouldn't they support their continued use of men's facilities: surely they'd be safe??? But it's validation isn't it? and I say
No thank you

And to the posters saying 'non trans women' - that's women. Fixed it

That is possibly a different matter. Particularly if they ‘transition’ in the work place. I think each situation has to be dealt with in an appropriate and proportionate way. But I know there are likely to be different ideas of what that is.

Well, quite. It gets a bit tricky trying to work out who is 'trans enough' to use the facilities of the sex they wish to use, doesn't it? The trouble is that 'gender' is a nebulous idea, based on vague ideas about stereotypes that are, at base, meaningless.

Sex, however, has very real effects on us all. Sex segregation is the only definition that really makes sense, which is probably why it's been observed for - well, forever.

We just can't have 'toilets for people who like long hair and make up' and 'toilets for people who smile less' and 'toilets for people who can't make up their mind'.

We (women) need somewhere to bleed. To put it bluntly.

How are work places to be 100% sure? Should HR departments now be arguing with people over what sex they are if they suspect someone is transsexual?
How would you actually prove it?

Oh yes, the old “you can’t stop me” argument. So convincing and reassuring.

Where employers already offer gender-neutral toilets and changing
facilities, the risk of creating a barrier for transgender people is alleviated*

Gender neutral. Aka mixed sex. Fantastic. Designate one block of toilets to be mixed sex and leave all other single sex. Employer done their job, everyone happy. Right?

I would suggest one of the mens. As it is proven women as a group need relatively more cubicles than men, it fixes that problem as well because now women who want to, can use the new mixed sex (ex mens) toilets.

@VladmirsPoutine

I don't think it's about safety in this specific instance it's about transitioning. In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet.

That's not a world view.

And as always you have to explain what you intend to do with the displaced females who also need the right to use a female toilet. But can't unless it's female only.

There's no point posting selected bits of advice and saying 'thems the rules'. The whole point of this discussion is that its a totally messed up, confused conflicting muddle of a law, badly made and badly executed, that tries to avoid facing that these are conflicting needs.

They've since transitioned

At what point in transitioning does a man "become" a woman?
As for a grc ( I think it's still same rules) you are required to "live"as a woman for two years. Now no one has yet come up with how anyone lives as a woman but assuming it's a thing that can be defined, that's at least two years before a man can call himself a woman legally.
So as weeks have passed not two years, he cannot be a woman.

Field you think trans people are likely to lie about their sex? Why?

I just don’t think it’s anyone else’s business. For someone just getting on with life, their medical history or ‘birth sex’ if you like, is no one else’s business. And certainly not where toilets at work are concerned.

I just don’t think it’s anyone else’s business.

🤣

Course it is !!!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

What's your deal? If they identify as a woman (if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body), then leave them be. This may not be one of your thoughts on trans women, but GCs calling all trans women rapists and that's fine, so by that logic, aren't all GCs rapists?

if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body
Er....

If they identify as a woman (if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body),

Evidence for this please?

@Alphabay tell me more about this brain scan and a women's brain? Plus please point me to where "GCs" called all TW rapists?

Not like male baldness. Removal of testes/ testosterone and oestrogen therapy removes the risk and progression of male pattern baldness

Nah, no way is this true. Just look at the most famous transwomen, including the youngest transitioned one in Florida. They all without fail have a receding hairline. Too many of them for a coincidence.

@Fieldofgreycorn

Field you think trans people are likely to lie about their sex? Why?

I just don’t think it’s anyone else’s business. For someone just getting on with life, their medical history or ‘birth sex’ if you like, is no one else’s business. And certainly not where toilets at work are concerned.

Absolutely. Otherwise it's like the Spanish Inquisition.

What's your deal? If they identify as a woman (if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body), then leave them be.

Wonderful. Where can I get my brain scanned?

The finest minds are here advising us tonight.

@Alphabay

If they identify as a woman (if they're getting hormones via the NHS, they have to get a brain scan to see if they have a womens brain inside a guys body)

Oh my word where on earth did you get that from