How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

[LockdownLisa]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

They've since transitioned.

And this changes their sex how?

And this removes the female staff's need for privacy away from males how?

Having also had significant period incidences while at work and needing to be drying trousers in a female toilet, I most certainly do not want a male person in my toilets.

And strangely single cubicle toilets don't usually have the space in a tiny sink and the size of a hand dryer to dry clothes out. So, I guess that leaves females who have this issue with simply leaving for the day.

The law firmly protects those who transition. If anyone causes them any problems in the male toilets due to their transition, they would have a rock-solid discrimination case.

They've since transitioned.

Meaning what, exactly?

The law firmly protects those who transition. If anyone causes them any problems in the male toilets due to their transition, they would have a rock-solid discrimination case.

Yes. There is a good solid piece of law to protect them. And if we follow the activists line, those males shouldn't have anything to worry about, but if something adverse happened, then the law would sort it out.

To think anything else is to paint males as being unable to control themselves and that is not being kind. We already know the rates of voilent crime committed by males, but it surely cannot apply in the work place, so ... no issue with them continuing to use the male facilities. Is there?

After all, if it is good enough for women to have to allow a subset of males into their single sex spaces knowing that the same proportion of those males will commit sex crimes in the same rate as other males, this decision is not based on safety is it?

What else can it be based on?

And why again do females have to give up their privacy for any male who feels they need to access female spaces?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They've since transitioned.

Meaning what, exactly?

Meaning they really want to use the ladies.

If the argument is that males who identify as transgender wouldn't be safe in the men's, the TRAs have an answer to that.

So the men in the building are so unsafe the trans woman can’t be expected to use the male toilets, but men are so safe it’s fine for them to use the woman’s toilets?

There’s nothing wrong with wanting a safe, single sex space to use the toilet.

@CharlieParley

I doubt this person would change up their entire life to use a female toilet, so I think I'd ask yourself what is making you wary and why.

That male person's motivation has no bearing on the rights of female staff to female-only toilets. It doesn't matter if it's a well-meaning person or someone doing it for nefarious or mischievous reasons - they are male and would deny the female staff members their rights to dignity, privacy and safety by using the female-only toilets.

Our rights do not stand or fall with a male person's motivation, they exist in their own right. Believe it or not, but we are fully realised human beings and thus have rights of our own. Hard won rights that enable us to participate in public life and that exist even without the approval of male colleagues or misinformed HR departments.

Moreover, the loss of single-sex provisions hits various marginalised groups of women harder than others, such as disabled women, women from culturally conservative backgrounds, women from faith groups and traumatised female survivors of male violence who cannot use mixed-sex facilities at all. Many of them also fall under other protected characteristics in addition to sex, such as race or ethnicity, religion or belief and disability and the OP's employer has a duty to these groups as well.

As for your question, no male person in this situation can now be unaware of the large numbers of women who do not consent to sharing facilities with males where they are vulnerable and in a state of undress. If such a male person chooses to use female-only spaces, it is therefore a conscious violation of women's boundaries in my view and we are right to be wary of any male person who chooses to violate the boundaries of female people. My own experience with male violence tells me that.

AMEN.

I don't think it's about safety in this specific instance it's about transitioning. In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet.

@VladmirsPoutine

What do you think your trans colleague will do to you in the toilet?

You say you are the "lowest of the low" in terms of rank so I can't imagine choosing this particular hill to die on.

If you do e-mail them saying:

'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

What if they write back:

"The women's toilets."

What do you do then? All because your colleague would like to use a toilet in their workplace.

Why should OP have to write an email asking what the transgender staff should do??? OP should write an email asking for her legal rights to single sex exemptions to be upheld. I'd quite "like to" go and run my daughters school for a day, but liking the idea of sitting in the Headmistresses office doesn't actually mean that legally I am allowed to. A concept you appear to be struggling with.

I feel for you OP, even if this person is a colleague and may be perfectly nice, you are still entitled to a single sex space. What a pain, and in cases like this where all the male colleagues clearly know this person, why not continue to use the toilet appropriate for their biological sex?

@VladmirsPoutine

I don't think it's about safety in this specific instance it's about transitioning. In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet.

Haha. Very amusing.

Born male? Susceptible to male pattern violence. A bit like male baldness. Hope that helps.

@VladmirsPoutine

I don't think it's about safety in this specific instance it's about transitioning. In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet.

And if you don't accept that, which many people don't? You can't compel people to share your world view, especially when a tribunal has very recently upheld the right to hold gender critical views.

@VladmirsPoutine

I don't think it's about safety in this specific instance it's about transitioning. In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet.

Would you please read the thread?

Multiple people have explained why this does not work for all female people.

If you can't be bothered to read or to discuss the actual problem, there's no point in addressing your posts just banging away on the same blunt point.

It is not all and only about the needs and the best interest of male born people.

I don't think it's about safety in this specific instance it's about transitioning. In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet

My world view is that people can dress as they like, and call themselves whatever they like but it’s not possible to change biological sex. Biological women have every right to single sex spaces, even if that hurts the feelings of biological men.

@Artichokeleaves I have read the thread. And pretty much all other threads whenever this comes up. My views on trans people have changed.

@VladmirsPoutine

I don't think it's about safety in this specific instance it's about transitioning. In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet.

And so a male's needs is prioritised above any female's needs and that is ok?

Because, it is all about the rights for that transitioned male.

@VladmirsPoutine

I don't think it's about safety in this specific instance it's about transitioning. In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet.

The OP is entitled to single sex spaces under the Equality Act, no matter what your worldview.

In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet.

What about for those who DON'T have that 'world view'?

And please do show us the statistics where the majority of women feel that a male with a penis has every right to use a female toilet....

You have taken the view point that the majority have, so please do show us the survey results that show this. Make sure it includes the fact that the male has a penis though.

@Musthavesbackagain

"Born male? Susceptible to male pattern violence. A bit like male baldness. Hope that helps."

I don't remember this lesson in feminism! Violence is biological what is the world coming to

Violence is biological what is the world coming to

Good thing that pp talked about male pattern violence in reference to the 95+% of sex crimes being perpetrated by males, hence one of the needs for safeguarding principles around the 'male' sex class.

And I don't think the world has changed all that much, I reckon that this statistic has pretty much held true for ever.

In other words if your world view is that trans women are women then a trans woman has every right to use a female toilet

It isn't my world view, so they don't. Glad we got that sorted.

You don't remember that lesson in feminism? Or you don't remember how to punctuate a sentence?

Newflash - men are susceptible to male things. Baldness. Violence. Etc. This includes transgender women because they are born male.
I'm not even going to bother reiterating the rest of it, you're only trolling the thread in an attempt to derail.

I don't remember this lesson in feminism!

Try the second wave, not the weak sauce, male pandering stuff that passes for "feminism" now.

I have got a similar situation looming on the horizon at my workplace. I have thought about it for some time and I have now decided to fight fire with fire. I have been asked for my preferred pronouns, so I will be advising that they are he/him etc. Henceforth, I would like to be addressed as Mr Ann Fran. I will be attempting to access all male spaces i.e. the Gents. For full disclosure, I have given birth before so they are well aware of my sex. I shall not make not physical changes to my body or appearance. I'm going to tell tham that I am a man and if they try and argue otherwise I will tell them that they are transphobic.

please see Case No: 2206063/2017 and Case No: 1304471/2018 as examples of an employer who, inter alia, allowed this to happen or directly engaged in stopping a trans person from using the toilets of their choice.

That's not what happened in those cases. In the Primark case the transwoman was allowed to use the female toilets. In the Landrover case the claimant was non-binary and used the male toilets. In both cases the problem was that the employers allowed abuse to occur and an instance of abuse (as part of a pattern) occured around toilet use.

To my knowlege there is no case law which tests the protected characteristics of sex or religion against that of gender reassignment in respect of toilet use. If an employer designates female toilets as single sex for the purpose of preserving women's privacy then clearly a case can be made that this is a valid EA exception (unless there is some case law I'm not aware of). I suspect the outcome would depend a lot on the specific workforce context.

@LockdownLisa If you are going to raise an objection then I think it should be around the need for privacy for women. I would speak to your union (not the rep, a specialist) and be very specific and careful in how you frame the letter.