How to approach the 'TW in a work loo' issue

[LockdownLisa]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a4279797-Workplace-advice-needed?msgid=108499436#108499436

This was my thread from a few weeks ago. My colleague has now come out as trans, which is fine. However, I saw her use the women's toilets today, which is not so fine. We do have self contained disabled toilets which I think would be more appropriate.

All we've had from management is a 'Peter is now Sandra, work systems will be updated to reflect this' type email. There's been very little chat in the office about it so I can't gauge how other people feel about it.

I don't really feel comfortable approaching my section manager as I know I'll just be fobbed off. I was thinking about emailing my HR department (I work for an NHS hospital trust, it's a Stonewall member as I think most of them are) but have no idea how to word it!

Does anybody have any suggestions? I was thinking something very simple like:
'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

I'm the lowest of the low in terms of my banding and although I've held more senior positions than this before, I'm so uncertain how to handle this. I believe (from the previous thread) that women are legally entitled to same sex provision, but fighting for that right in the workplace isn't an easy thing to do, especially from my lowly position 😕.

@Clymene

I'm disappointed that *@flibberyjibbery8 and @Quaggars* weren't in the threads defending Alana McLoughlin's right to beat the shit out of a woman or on the Wii Spa threads defending the rights of a convicted sex offender to expose himself.

They're all the same thing. Either men can become women or they can't.

It’s a mystery isn’t why they’re always incredibly absent on those threads but the moments there’s one about toilets….

PP suggesting Peter/Sandra needs to change their entire life are being very transphobic! You don’t need to present as female to be a TW

@flibberyjibbery8

Tread very carefully... trans women are viewed as women and therefore you may be thought of as transphobic by any perceived objection. Trans people are pretty marginalised and I doubt this person would change up their entire life to use a female toilet, so I think I'd ask yourself what is making you wary and why. Then decide how you'll answer this if asked.

And yet, what about other marginalised people who also wish to use that toilet but can now no longer use it because a male is there?

That trope about ‘no one changes their life in this way to use female toilets’ is pretty stale and really is empty. Maybe get some empathy for women who need the reassurance of single sex spaces. Or is your empathy only reserved for males…

HR exam question: A male employee reports an incident of bullying by another employee whilst in the toilet facilities. Do you;

A. Investigate and deal with the report in line with company disciplinary process.
B. Suggest he uses the womens in future, they're a friendly bunch.

So a woman wants to use the toilets for women and you're mad/confused/against it? Maybe you should use the mens toilet if you feel uncomfortable with women x

@Antinerak

So a woman wants to use the toilets for women and you're mad/confused/against it? Maybe you should use the mens toilet if you feel uncomfortable with women x

How are you defining the word 'woman' here?

It means 'adult human female' not 'anyone who says they are' which appears to be your definition.

So a woman wants to use the toilets for women and you're mad/confused/against it?

No.

So a male wants to use the toilets for females and you're mad/confused/against it?

Fixed it for you.

The poster suggesting that a woman who cannot use a mixed sex space for toileting due to a disability should be bounced out to the accessible toilet needs to re read the Equality Act. You cannot treat a person less favourably on the grounds of their disability, and all the protected characteristics matter equally. Trans does not trump the other eight.

Reasons why women may not be able to use a mixed sex toilet include:

• disability such as autism (bear in mind that advice is that trans people should not be required to use a disabled toilet because of the 'stigma' so presumably this matters equally to non trans people too)

• trauma and history of violence, which obviously no woman should be pressured to have to disclose or be 'outed' for

• faith, culture and belief - obviously too, no woman should have to defend her faith or culture to others as if they're something wrong, disclose personal information or risk discriminatory treatment for being seen to have a faith/culture that conflicts with the needs of a TW

• freedom of belief, that a TW is male and being unwilling to share toilet facilities with any male regardless of circumstance. Which is perfectly legal.

It is pointless to be dishonest or avoidant of the fact that male people using the sex based space that matches their preferred gender identity conflicts with many women's need for sex based spaces and provisions, and access to women's provisions.

Women cannot be excluded from all available provision so that male people can have choice from all the provisions, because discrimination and massively less favourable treatment on grounds of sex. Women cannot also suffer less favourable treatment and added disadvantage for not being able to use mixed sex spaces.

The obvious solution is to provide sex based and mixed sex spaces alongside each other and meet all needs.

It depends on how intersectional and inclusive your transactivism is.

@Antinerak

So a woman wants to use the toilets for women and you're mad/confused/against it? Maybe you should use the mens toilet if you feel uncomfortable with women x

I think you are mistaken. OP's colleage was, and remains, male. The woman in this scenario is OP who would like to maintain access to the single sex facilities she previously had.

I think a really good solution is to make all the men's loos unisex and the women's loos single sex. Job done.

This whole thing about males accessing female spaces is predicated on a much-more-homophobic society of decades ago where a male who wanted to wear dresses had to do so "under cover" - attempt to pretend to be a woman to do so.

And their very ability to even do this was predicated on such a firm assumption of "person wearing dress = woman" that that assumption could override any doubt about their sex.

In 2021, both those assumptions are false - there's no reason to think that the men in the company would have an objection to other males wearing dresses, and there are firm laws to make sure there is redress if they do, and the massively increased visibility of trans people means the "anyone wearing a dress is a woman" assumption that could have potentially permitted passing no longer holds.

And in this specific case everyone knows this person is a man - they're in no way "under cover" here. No "witness protection" type justification remains. This historical convention of transwomen using women's toilets is functionally obsolete, and the level of problems of female spaces being invaded is now so obvious it's increasingly clear this sort of obsolete practice has to end.

Yep, it would be helpful if men could have some kind of 'you can pee next to me' campaign to show their support and acceptance of males who are gender non-conforming.

@headintheproverbial

I think a really good solution is to make all the men's loos unisex and the women's loos single sex. Job done.

No I think those with a penis should use one toilet and those with a vagina should use another toilet.

What do you think your trans colleague will do to you in the toilet?

You say you are the "lowest of the low" in terms of rank so I can't imagine choosing this particular hill to die on.

If you do e-mail them saying:

'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

What if they write back:

"The women's toilets."

What do you do then? All because your colleague would like to use a toilet in their workplace.

The absurdity of this situation is that Sandra is essentially still physically Peter only perhaps that their external attire, makeup and hair have changed to others. She might feel a women but in is reality not. Had Peter walked into the female toilets there would be outrage.
I understand your concern I have the same reservations when my young DD goes into female toilets and changing rooms on her own.
You are right to want to protect your female privacy and should not be vilified or threatened for your concern.

Could you contact your union for advice/support?

The unions are well captured, too

@VladmirsPoutine

What do you think your trans colleague will do to you in the toilet?

You say you are the "lowest of the low" in terms of rank so I can't imagine choosing this particular hill to die on.

If you do e-mail them saying:

'Please can you clarify our policy on which toilets, changing rooms and showers our transgender staff are expected to use?'

What if they write back:

"The women's toilets."

What do you do then? All because your colleague would like to use a toilet in their workplace.

Try reading the thread.

This has been explained, patiently, multiple times. Refusing to engage with the issues or listen when women talk just reinforces the misogyny in all this.

What do you think your trans colleague will do to you in the toilet?

Seems to be very hard for some people to understand, but some women prefer not to be with males in enclosed spaces, especially where they are vulnerable. This is exactly why we have legislation to afford women the right to single sex spaces.

There's a central paradox here in that the only thing that meant that this practice of males using female facilities "undercover" was a remotely stable situation for decades was the extreme stigma to them doing so.

This stigma meant that only a very few males who decided that the least worst way of handling gender dysphoria was to attempt to pass as a woman would attempt it - and they would really attempt to pass, knowing that to be called out as a male would potentially endanger them.

They had to always leave there to be room to doubt - make sure it wasn't obvious to random strangers that they were male, so people would give them the benefit of the doubt. And they absolutely could not afford to misbehave or show male-typical behaviour.

With this stigma gone, there's no longer anything stopping any random male from just deciding they want women's places and stuff. Increased trans acceptance makes trans people getting to using opposite sex facilities far less tenable. It's no longer just a gender dysphoric minority, it's anyone who just wants to have a go.

And the acceptance has gone too far - declarations of "trans" now appear to be a free pass to misbehave as much as you like. It's effectively a "priest class" acting as an abuser magnet, like all previous unquestionable groups have been and always will be.

Women can no longer afford to be as lax on this as in the past. No more turning a blind eye. At this point, silence is complicity in a whole heap of abuses.

The balance has shifted - the risk to trans individuals has significantly reduced, while the threat to women due to males not being stopped from entering their spaces has greatly increased.

In an environment where males are running rape crisis centres, beating up women in sports arenas, and being locked up in female prisons, how can anyone not expect increasingly hardline resistance to the more minor intrusions? It's clear what being lax has led to.

I’ve worked in two organisations with single - sex loos ; a startup and a uni. Both were fine as they were wall to ceiling separate spaces with individual hand wash basins. I’m confused why buildings aren’t being updated rather than just expecting people to share existing spaces.

What do you think your trans colleague will do to you in the toilet?

What does the trans colleague think men will do to them in the toilet?

You don't get to sneer at only one party's concerns here. Unless you're a male supremacist.

I don't think a male colleague would do anything to me at work, whatever his inner identity.
They still shouldn't use the very few specific places set aside for women, and I won't use the specific provision for men.

I really like the manager's office, but I am not at liberty to say "I don't want to take my break in the staff canteen, I want to use your office because I think I'm management material anyway."

Is the concept of reasonable boundaries some rare, labyrinthine mystery to you daft TRA types? No wonder you're all always so confused and stressed about everyday life.

All because your colleague would like to use a toilet in their workplace.

And all because this colleague has been using the male toilets without incident and without fear and now wishes to use the female toilets as a male.

Nice bit of downplaying there though.

And all because this colleague has been using the male toilets without incident and without fear and now wishes to use the female toilets as a male.

They've since transitioned.

They're still a man VladimirsPoutine. And OP is still entitled by law to a single sex space.