Against White Feminism

[Allycott]

Yesterday I heard an interview with the author of this book. I listened to her views and rationale for writing the book.

Has anyone read it?

No, I haven't.

It seems like a book that is describing the situation in the US and is of less relevance in the UK where we have some of the items that the US doesn't (paid sick leave; maternity leave; maternity pay; a free at the point of need healthcare system; a different prison system).

I understand why Helen Joyce's book has been sold in the UK edition in the US (no US publishing house would take on the task of publishing a US version) but I also understand how much this can limit the understanding and relevance of such work in a different context.

I have to say that it seems odd for Penguin to cite it alongside Why I No Longer Talk to White People and Invisible Women but this is one of many reasons that I'm not in publishing.

It's reviewed in The Times. I haven't and won't be reading it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6d47472a-0fe1-11ec-b01e-096275f2ac22?shareToken=9c6a071ab85846b46b4b98656dde0f04

That's quite a review. No, I don't think I'll be reading it. It wastes less time if I stick to the meme version.

[quote KimikosNightmare]It's reviewed in The Times. I haven't and won't be reading it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6d47472a-0fe1-11ec-b01e-096275f2ac22?shareToken=9c6a071ab85846b46b4b98656dde0f04[/quote]
Pretty much as I suspected.

It's a facile example but I find that reading US recipes with US ingredients has led to substantial misunderstandings of even basics in the UK.

People get annoyed when I state that something won't work the same because US flour is different (protein content; some of it is still bleached using processes that have been banned in UK/Europe since 1990s); the baking powder tends to be double action; the water content of butter is different; and the egg sizes are different; and I will draw a veil over the volume v. weight measurements. There are even baking differences that reflect that UK/US ovens tend to have different positions for their heat sources and that affects the advice about baking sheets etc.

This has never stopped people with negligible baking experience arguing with me when they ask me a question and I tell them that [X] doesn't exist in the UK and they would need to make some adaptations.

I would think feminists in the US would be better placed to comment on the book. As somebody in the UK, I would also add that I can not have even a vaguely well formed opinion because I don't know enough about federal v state v other differences that would affect some of the relevant topics throughout the US.

Feminism often fails to be intersectional, and chooses to ignore the particular issues faced by women of colour. Keep ignoring that fact and you remain part of the problem.

paid sick leave; maternity leave; maternity pay; a free at the point of need healthcare system; a different prison system

Women of colour are more likely to be in low paid work with poor benefits. They have worse health outcomes, particularly in maternity care. They're far more likely to be sent to prison than their white counterparts.

But yes, all fine here. Right?

that's a very interesting review from Joan Smith

i won't be reading the book...

....Superb analogy, EA

And no greater misunderstanding than the simple term "Middle-Class" which is such a different concept over here and over there.

See also the American High School Movie, its obsession with popularity and fitting in rather than differentiating yourself, the whole Jocks & Nerds thing which is all about scholarships, the GPA and its drive for mediocrity vs narrowing to three subjects at 16+, then studying them to a level higher at that age than sophomore year at most US universities, four years for an ordinary degree vs honours in three.

Feminism often fails to be intersectional

examples please?

the review mentions that Pragna Patel, a founding member of Southall Black Sisters has been accused of white feminism. people really are losing their minds

I heard her being interviewed on Women’s Hour on Radio 4. I was driving, so may have missed something, but it seemed that her argument was that any white woman should shun ambition and personal gain, and instead focus on supporting women of colour. It made me want to ask if she felt the same way about white men, but that question didn’t come up.

She was also quite unclear on what she wanted - the example of a white, female Chair of a board taking the position rather than offering it up to a woman of colour came up twice, but nothing else very specific. She was also asked about class, and whether the UK situation was comparable to the USA, but didn’t really answer in any detail.

It was a shame, as I was hoping for an analysis that gave some clarity about what needs to change. So few women are Chairs of the Board that the example felt a bit niche, and I wondered if she really wanted to argue for positive discrimination at all levels of employment (and beyond?) but hadn’t quite expressed it?

Women of colour are more likely to be in low paid work with poor benefits. They have worse health outcomes, particularly in maternity care. They're far more likely to be sent to prison than their white counterparts.

And a UK book that outlined and described that would be an excellent contribution to a UK discussion. There have been some decent discussions on MN about disparities in health outcomes, particularly in maternity care.

I would be very pleased if the MoJ had made good on any of the calls to:
– reform;
– start collecting and analysing data post the Lammy or the Prison Trust reviews/reports.

A US book about the US context, no. I had somebody tell me that they were working to abolish Title IX recently (the context was UK universities).

US discourse does not translate to the UK and it leads to profound misunderstandings.

Women of colour are more likely to be in low paid work with poor benefits....

More likely than who, and which ones?

The differences between different ethnic minorities are greater than the crude determinant of black vs white.

Indians do better than Pakistanis. British Black Africans do better than British West Indians.

EmbarrassingAdmissions interesting re US recipes. I usually just don't bother and Google for a UK version of whatever I'm interested in cooking.

@CorrBlimeyGG

Feminism often fails to be intersectional, and chooses to ignore the particular issues faced by women of colour. Keep ignoring that fact and you remain part of the problem.

paid sick leave; maternity leave; maternity pay; a free at the point of need healthcare system; a different prison system

Women of colour are more likely to be in low paid work with poor benefits. They have worse health outcomes, particularly in maternity care. They're far more likely to be sent to prison than their white counterparts.

But yes, all fine here. Right?

If what you say is true and applies to the UK (given that the statutory rights you refer to apply to everyone in the UK) why is it a problem for white women to solve?

the example of a white, female Chair of a board taking the position rather than offering it up to a woman of colour

Huh. Any time I've been offered a job the options were "yes" or "no" - nobody told me there was a secret pass-the-parcel third option.

Maybe you get to do that if you're the chair of a board, but this woman still needs to fuck off very far away and write a book telling men to offer their jobs to women of colour.

Discrimination doesn't stop because laws exist
It requires social changes as well
And white woman are more likely to be in a position to help effect those changes

But I think the previous point about how you can't lump all UK POC in the same group is very relevant

And since many of the issues are social not legal , the society is highly relevant, and the UK culture is very different to the US

@KimikosNightmare

EmbarrassingAdmissions interesting re US recipes. I usually just don't bother and Google for a UK version of whatever I'm interested in cooking.

You've no idea how much I wish other people would follow suit.

Pickling is another bugbear because the strength of vinegar can vary enormously and this has food safety implications.

There was a comment going round in public health recently about the report that some episodes of Peppa Pig are restricted from public viewing in Australia. Australian parents objected to an episode that was (I paraphrase), "Don't be afraid of spiders. Pick them up and play with them because spiders are our friends." As the parents pointed out, that might be acceptable in the UK but not in Australia.

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/sep/05/peppa-pig-spiders-cant-hurt-you-episode-pulled-off-air-in-australia-again

I think we tend to need a good understanding of our local conditions before being able to scrutinise whether best practice in other contexts can be adopted or adapted.

Excoriating review in the times, thank you for the link. I won’t be reading the book.

People get annoyed when I state that something won't work the same because US flour is different (protein content; some of it is still bleached using processes that have been banned in UK/Europe since 1990s); the baking powder tends to be double action; the water content of butter is different; and the egg sizes are different;

omg this explains some deeply disappointing lockdown banana bread, thank you! I knew it was a US recipe - I had no baking powder and American banana bread seems to only use bicarbonate -but I thought I could just convert the measurements.

I wonder if it may also be the reason my attempt to bake a gluten-free-egg-free-nut-free-dairy-free cake for my niece with allergies didn't work very well. I had assumed it was just a hopeless endeavour.

(and I just read that Times review. Seems like a better title would have been Against Straw Feminism.)

I don't understand how abstracting ideas like whiteness and blackness into value judgements like bad and good can be anything more than deeply racist. Even most casually prejudiced people would deny that kind of association pretty quickly.

A white female CEO should give up her spot to a black women? How is that supposed to work?

Wait - is UK baking powder just tartaric acid, then?

Baking powder is a mix of Sodium Bicarbonate, Cream of Tatar and cornflour. Proportions vary.

....And milk. Have you read the contents of a US milk carton? Amazing there's any room left for any actual milk.

@LobsterNapkin

Wait - is UK baking powder just tartaric acid, then?

No, it's sodium bicarb and tartaric acid. It's single action, however.

bakeschool.com/single-acting-versus-double-acting-baking-powder/

Decent explanation from revered food scientist McGee but the article is from a US context which can be confusing:

Baking powder, like baking soda, is a leavening agent, meaning it helps doughs and batters rise. But unlike baking soda, baking powder is a complete leavening agent. That means it contains both the alkaline baking soda and the acid needed to create lift in one packaged ingredient. This is why it's so easy to make a baking powder substitute if you have baking soda and an acid, like cream of tartar or even lemon juice or vinegar. And really, the difference between double-acting and single-acting baking powder comes down to which type of acid is paired with the alkaline baking soda to make baking powder.

A double-acting baking powder will react and create gas bubbles twice: once when added to liquid, and again when exposed to heat. "That is, they inflate an initial set of gas bubbles upon mixing the powder into the batter, and then a second set during the baking process," explains food scientist Harold McGee in On Food and Cooking .

www.myrecipes.com/extracrispy/whats-the-difference-between-double-acting-and-single-acting-baking-powder

She was also quite unclear on what she wanted - the example of a white, female Chair of a board taking the position rather than offering it up to a woman of colour came up twice, but nothing else very specific

I can't stop thinking about this! Is she secretly three children in a trenchcoat? Both the analysis of the problem and the identified solution are "Vincent Adultman works at the business factory" levels of understanding of the world.

No, it's sodium bicarb and tartaric acid. It's single action, however.

Interesting - so I was always under the impression that this is what baking powder included here in Canada, and that was double acting. But I guess ours isn't cream of tartar at all.

"People claim it is reflective more of a state of mind than skin colour; even Pragna Patel, a founding member of Southall Black Sisters, has been accused of being a “white feminist.”

This strikes me as bordering on offensive - to imply that someone isn't black just because they have a different politics to you. And also has a weird parallel with the 'boy likes pink therefore he must be a girl' thinking.

Are we now race-transing woman who don't toe the political line? Will the reverse then become true; will a white woman who isn't a 'white feminist' be able to be considered 'black', despite never having experienced any of the prejudices that actual black women face?