Against White Feminism

[Allycott]

Yesterday I heard an interview with the author of this book. I listened to her views and rationale for writing the book.

Has anyone read it?

unherd.com/2021/09/the-problem-with-white-saviours/

Excellent article apologies if someone's already posted it

I always think of Raquel Rosario Sanchez when I hear the phrase white feminism.

If white feminism is a thing, gender identity ideology epitomizes it

She hints at what for me is the far more important conflict within feminism, and has been across Europe since the 1850s - class. Yes, of course racial inequalities play a role, but outside of the US historical context this is in my view an issue that matters alongside and not above poverty and class.

@CharlieParley that's such a good article.

@PermanentTemporary

I'd love to hear recommendations of books that do enlighten in the UK context. I'm quite intrigued to read this one tbh. British racism is rife but different and there's no doubt how intersectionality works over here will be different too.

Yes. I have some sympathy with RZ's critique in spots of the excesses of liberal feminism that do, in some ways, support the commodification of women.

I'll be interested to see what you make of RZ's book.

As Allison Bailey remarks in the tweet quoted upthread (August 2020):

So, when the usual suspects spout their usual nonsense about the gender critical movement in the UK being an extension of white feminism etc, remind them that every key case before the courts right now is being brought by women of colour.

Maya Forstater
Raquel Rosario-Sànchez
Keira Bell
Sonia Appleby
Me (Allison Bailey)

We now have some outcomes for Forstater, Bell, and Appleby. I hope for successful conclusions to those (where relevant) and good outcomes for Rosario-Sànchez and Bailey.

Women in Scotland are involuntarily) exposing the absurdities of the Hate Crime Bill and what happens when a state can selectively use its powers to prosecute some and not others.

The 4 nations of the UK have shared and hyperlocal problems. I would like to see an exploration of intersectionality within these contexts.

You're going to have to explain what mainstream feminism is to you, because from my point of view, intersectional feminism is mainstream feminism.
The type that insists 'women of colour' should accept males in single-sex spaces and services which is more likely to cause such women to withdraw from public spaces and activities.
It's the type of feminism that only values 'women of colour' if they agree with its ideological assertions.
It's the type of feminism that conveniently suits middle class and privileged 'women of colour' while shafting women of all skin tones under the guise of personal choice (surrogacy, trafficking etc).

I agree, this is the pitfall of "intersectional feminism" as it tends to be understood.

Re 'uppity,' above, and being divided by a common language:

Another racist term with very different transatlantic meanings is 'Thug.'

In the US, it is code for an urban young black male in hoodie and baggiy jeans on the streets and without a job.

In the UK, its origins come from the Raj and the Thugee, allegedly anti-Western bandits (another Anglo-Indian word) who supposedly targetted white people. In realith, they were probably just ordinary decent criminals trying to earn a dishonest living. But the term stuck, and gained new currency postwar when it was applied to the very pale Teds, Mods & Rockers etc.

@Jaysmith71

And regards the 'Boomer' thing, UK and US postwar birth rates differ significantly. There is a sharp postwar spike, for obvious reasons, in both countries, but in the UK it falls back down rapidly as austerity sets in, and revives in the Swinging Sixties when the US numbers are in freefall. We called this the 'baby bulge' at the time.

And at no stage does the UK birth rate equal the US.

That is interesting. It explains how I have recently become the end of the post war baby boom when at school I was taught that had been and gone. So much seems to assume that the US is here.

TaraR2020 I'm highly doubtful that a 'feminist' framework that prioritises males over females will ever be able to appreciate and understand the experiences of women of colour who are alienated by it, much less be able to resolve the issues that arise from such an ideological position.

CharleyParley's link to Raquel Rosario Sanchez's article describes the reality for women around the world and the inability of 'intersectional feminism' to address any of these real-world problems.

@TaraR2020

I'm worried that criticisms of the book in the UK may miss the point that feminism isn't felt to be inclusive of women of colour by many of women of colour. Whether this is through ignorance or disagreement is another matter but I think this thread could easily alienate many MN who aren't white.

There are differences between the racism that exists in the UK vs the US but I think many British PoC still find their experiences reflected in the US discourse (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Like a pp I hope MNers who post on Black Mumsnet will engage with this thread but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.

Note - i'm not accusing anyone on this thread of racism, I just think that in focusing on the differences between US and British culture it risks excluding PoC living in Britain who can't relate to mainstream feminism.

Yes, I’ve had a look at a long running thread on Black MNers about feeling that MN feminism excludes and / or isn’t relevant to them. I’d like to understand whether the arguments in this book are what they’re getting at. I fear I may be missing a point that I really should understand, but which I have a blind spot about because of my background.

A recent thread from a Pakistani feminist about Judith Butler.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4344672-Judith-Butler-and-Afghan-women

Sorry, a recent thread about an article by a Pakistani feminist, which itself followed a Twitter thread where she got a lot of criticism, much of it from white people, for daring to point out some of the glaring failings of Butler style feminism.

Different Cultures, Different Outcomes:

US Racism is a great big blunt instrument. It is a dam that seeks to hold back a tide its adherents believe will swamp them. It is the product of a former slave economy at home.

British Racism is a sharp and subtle knife. It seeks to divide and rule, to cleave off a co-opted sucessful elite and leave behind the rest. It is the product of an exploitative overseas trading empire.

@Jaysmith71 that's an interesting way of looking at it, if argue that you could replace "British Racism" with "The British Class System" and your second paragraph would still make total sense (which is the point other posters are trying to make about the differences between US and UK feminism).

Except British Classism isn't the same as British Racism. To say that it is, is to deny that anyone is discriminated against in this country because of their race which is fundamentally wrong.

But British Racism does distinguish between ethnic groups according to a class-based perception.

This all goes back to the idea of, with apologies, the Westernised Oriental Gentleman, a high-caste Indian sent to an English model boarding school transplanted to the sub-continent to turn out servants of the empire.

It all rather went tits-up in 1857 when the Mutiny/Revolt coincides with the publication of Darwin, and people start to think that races are ordained as superior or inferior by God, the view of Churchill and Powell, and soon the British Army are describing any locals where they are based as 'Wogs,' including in Ireland where they were 'bog wogs.'

But that idea of co-option never really went away, and we see it today in the Kwasi Kwartengs and Bim Afolames, Eton and Oxford educated Tories.

‘
British Racism is a sharp and subtle knife. It seeks to divide and rule, to cleave off a co-opted sucessful elite and leave behind the rest. It is the product of an exploitative overseas trading empire.’

I think the subtlety of British racism is important. It is easy for the privileged to ignore and there’s often a denial that it exists at all. Which is why I think it’s important to be very careful when critiquing books on white feminism, not to fall into the trap of denying it exists or is a problem.

I have yet to see the finger-wagging-at-white-women approach solve any actual issues around race and inequality for women of colour. Is there any empirical evidence it actually works?

Intriguing that the men are usually let off the hook - whether white, brown, black etc.
I'm willing to bet if Pakistani men were made to take responsibility for issues around 'honour culture' and the violence that arises from it, the lives of many Pakistani women would be greatly improved. Yet all the insults and ire are reserved for and directed against 'white women' instead - it's a completely safe and 'cool' way to pay the bills. There's no money or media recognition to be made in confronting male violence and entitlement directly. You're more likely to lose your life trying.

But British Racism does distinguish between ethnic groups according to a class-based perception
OK, but POC from all classes (or perceived classes) can and do experience discrimination based on their race

I'm finding the shift of focus in some posts on this thread from racism to issues of gender and feminism difficult because it comes across as brushing over the issues poc have with what seems to be established feminism in order to discuss intersectionality with an issue that is closer to the posters' hearts. Seems be a fairly good example of why some WOC feel excluded from feminism.

....And in 'White Australia' in the 1960s, Greek and Italian immigrants were known as "The Wogs."

Another Greek migrant, CNN's Eleni Giokos, has spoken of growing up in Rural South Africa, where she was considered not white enough or black enough to belong by either group.

@Cyberworrier

https://unherd.com/2021/09/the-problem-with-white-saviours/

Excellent article apologies if someone's already posted it

Thank you - it's very interesting to hear from the actual pupils who were the subject of that particular episode.

What RZ seems to dislike is competitive "feminism", so women who are successful are "white" feminists and doing the jobs she wants black women to have. Or at least women who are not sex positive.

She says elsewhere white women journalists are her biggest hate target. The old newspaper journo career path has gone leaving women like RZ to take the option of getting noticed by writing angry polemic. She is quite upfront about that being her style. It's her way up the greasy pole, displaying her rage at having to compete with "white" women (which actually seems to mean sex positive women).

The irony is the polblonde has never been the liberal feminist that RZ hates so much.

Does she have the wit and intelligence to unravel her contradictions. Who knows.

@nauticant

That reminds me of a few times when I've seen a black British reporter working in the US and the absolute shock that some locals display when the reporter speaks in a British accent. They then struggle because they cannot put the reporter into any kind of context.

Yes! Gary Younge interview with the alt right leader Richard Spence comes to mind. You could see his confusion and irritation but Gary's English accent was clearly disarming him. He was frustrated but forced himself to remain civil.

@TaraR2020 i didnt say they were the same and its not logical to say that because classism and racism in Britain have similarities in how they are manipulated and who benefits I'm saying no one experiences descrimination based on race in the UK, its not an either /or scenario and its often both at the same time.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

‘ British Racism is a sharp and subtle knife. It seeks to divide and rule, to cleave off a co-opted sucessful elite and leave behind the rest. It is the product of an exploitative overseas trading empire.’

I think the subtlety of British racism is important. It is easy for the privileged to ignore and there’s often a denial that it exists at all. Which is why I think it’s important to be very careful when critiquing books on white feminism, not to fall into the trap of denying it exists or is a problem.

That is exactly what i was trying to get at, thank you! And the imagery of a sharp and subtle knife is really helpful, too (thanks to Jaysmith for that).

For me, it resonates with the stuff I’ve read about recruiting in your own image. Where that isn’t necessarily about your sex or race (though it can be) but can also be about class, background, university etc. So that can over-ride race, but that doesn’t mean racism isn’t there, just that sometimes having the ‘right’ accent / background / university means that race is seen as less important compared to what people have in common. Which can benefit some people of colour, but it’s likely to be confined to an elite.

I don't understand why it is feminism that is being dissected this way, when the aims of "white" feminism - maternity leave, equal pay etc, single sex prisons etc. benefit all women.

Of course we have other factors that play into discrimination: disability, age, class, sexuality... nobody in feminism is denying it. However, the idea of intersectionality has been co-opted to mean including men - so people might not feel they can use the language as easily.

Nobody is dissecting Black Lives Matter down sex based lines, saying it is too male focused. This could be done as arguably Breonna Taylor was not given the same focus as George Floyd, despite being asleep and the focus on police brutality does disproportionately affect young, black men. It is from feminists, rather than BLM, that I have read about the difference in health disparities for black women in the US.

I don't think that questioning why feminism is the only movement that has to apologise and divide itself, the only movement open to this type of criticism, is the same as dismissing the concerns of all the other discriminated groups.