Against White Feminism

[Allycott]

Yesterday I heard an interview with the author of this book. I listened to her views and rationale for writing the book.

Has anyone read it?

I will concede that there have been many black musicians in rock bands. But the fact remains that Chuck Berry and his like have been defined out of "Rock" by the industry and classified, until recently as "R&B," a term the younger generation now understand to be a completely different beast. Chuck Berry may have been first, but white radio stations played only Bill Haley and Jerry-Lee, etc.

Regards black Tories, it has long been noted that traditional Tory values of hard work, self-reliance and faith-based morality are a great fit for British black & Asian families, but they were for decades repelled by the Conservative Party because of Powell, Smethwick, Thatcher's "Swamped" remarks (Denis Thatcher was the most foul-mouthed of crude racists, a trait his daughter inherited.)

Even recently we had the hostile environment and the "Go Home" vans. But slowly the rise of the non-white middle-classes is seeing a more and more visible range of Conservatives, something Labour needs to understand and stop taking the black vote for granted.

And the Tories do treat their ethnic minorities so much better than Labour.

I think the Tories are just far more ruthless in culling their deadwood and recognise that competence is valued by the electorate (competence not, sadly, being a default requirement for MPs). Sunak could well be next Tory leader/PM. Not because those behind the throne care about diversity, but because he is (or at least appears) capable. Javid could also be a contender.

The leadership race will turn on who the parliamentary party picks to put to the rank-and-file. Sunak vs Javid and either could win. Sunak or Javid vs Gove and the racist vote kicks in.

Esma--Sister Rosetta!!
www.youtube.co/watch?v=Y9a49oFalZE&t=188s

Other US bands that had both white and black members/players/singers, etc:
Del Vikings. They had a hit with Come Go With Me (1956).

Alice in Chains
Three Dog Night
Hootie and the Blowfish
The Beach Boys
The funk brothers, famous Motown studio rhythm section who played on all the Detroit sessions (before the Label moved to LA) had several white players, who appeared on all the early Motown cuts
Minnie Riperton was the lead singer of the band Rotary Connection before going solo.
Prince was the singer for the primarily white band The Revolution
Papa John Creach was a blues violinist who was a member of Jefferson Airplane, Jefferson Starship and Hot Tuna Reebop,
Here is some Papa John Creach for your enjoyment:

some of this comes from post modernist thought that 'language creates reality'.

If I understand correctly (was tangentially part of my studies a long time ago) it's not so much that language creates reality, but that it, or rather the culture embedded in language, frames and describes reality so that we can only experience reality in the shapes we expect to see it.

So when you get genderists claiming that sex isn't real, or is less relevant to life than gender, they aren't saying they themselves don't perceive sex, but implementing the theory that if we change the language that frames reality, many things we believe are "real" will be shown to be simply a deep social/cultural construct. While physical reality hasn't change the interpretations and meanings we attach to it have, and since so much of human lived experience is a social and cultural experience, to all intents and purposes we have changed reality.

Jaysmith--I am taking it that you are contending then that, say, British top 40 music in the late 50s, early 60s, was much more progressive than America's? Is that so?

@PrincessNutella

Jaysmith--I am taking it that you are contending then that, say, British top 40 music in the late 50s, early 60s, was much more progressive than America's? Is that so?

Certainly not the 40s and 50s. Have you heard the first verse of "The Sun Has Got His Hat On?"

But in the 60s, in the era of pirate radio and eventually Radio 1 from 1967, there was no equivalent of the segregated radio of the USA, nor of the Grammys race-based categories.

But aren't there some concepts that are less prone to language than others ?

Like ( I am making this up /half remembering things ) all cultures see red and green , but some see the future behind rather than ahead of you ( you can't see it)

I would guess sex is one of those concepts that appears in every culture ?

...and on colurs, the connotations of colours are also cultural. The colour of mourning being a good example.

Some are cultural and some are constant I think ?
I was talking about the perception of the colour as opposed to the meaning of colour , although red may be danger everywhere

Like every one sees pink as distinct from light red , but some cultures light blue may be distinct

Apparently people whose language has no tenses (such as Mandarin Chinese) find it easier to take actions in favour of their future selves such as saving money (heard it on an NPR podcast).

@TabbyStar

Apparently people whose language has no tenses (such as Mandarin Chinese) find it easier to take actions in favour of their future selves such as saving money (heard it on an NPR podcast).

This feels similar:

www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/09/can-your-language-influence-your-spending-eating-and-smoking-habits/279484/

Languages are fascinating especially when it seems so attractive to extrapolate from them to explain cultural differences.

JaysmithI am puzzled by what you're trying to say here. The top 40s radio in the US is pretty much identical to that of the UKblack bands and performers such as Jimi Hendrix, the Supremes, Stevie Wonder, etc. were as well-represented by 1967 on regular US rock stations as they were on Radio 1.

But I think another cultural difference is that the UK is more culturally homogenous and has government controlled entertainment, so Radio 1 (and the pirate ships that the government was busy trying to shut down) were the only sources of music. The fact that there might have been R&B stations as well as rock stations was not just because of discrimination, though that was a factor in the early days, but because they served a market that wanted that content. Plus, the fact that excellent content was constantly being created. Radio stations were privately owned (though they had certain requirements they had to meet to serve the public), and therefore, there were reasons why it was good to carve out a niche market. In some areas, there are Spanish stations, in others, Country or classical music.. Although there are problems with privatization (too many commercials!), this system did allow listeners to turn the dial and hear different kinds of content. (Love the BBC, though).

Midge--Red is the color of uck and happiness in China. Brides wear red, and it is strongly associated with New Year.

*that would be luck.

@midgemagneto

But aren't there some concepts that are less prone to language than others ?

Like ( I am making this up /half remembering things ) all cultures see red and green , but some see the future behind rather than ahead of you ( you can't see it)

I would guess sex is one of those concepts that appears in every culture ?

Yes, it is, along with ideas like motherhood, family, etc. While not 100% universal, the mother, father, child dyad is close.

If there was no underlying reality we'd expect to see other arrangements just as commonly as these ones, but we don't.

When people talk about somehow dismantling family structures which have been unnaturally imposed on us by culture, it's difficult to know what they think the natural human community would look like, since there are basically 0 examples.

@Blibbyblobby

some of this comes from post modernist thought that 'language creates reality'.

If I understand correctly (was tangentially part of my studies a long time ago) it's not so much that language creates reality, but that it, or rather the culture embedded in language, frames and describes reality so that we can only experience reality in the shapes we expect to see it.

So when you get genderists claiming that sex isn't real, or is less relevant to life than gender, they aren't saying they themselves don't perceive sex, but implementing the theory that if we change the language that frames reality, many things we believe are "real" will be shown to be simply a deep social/cultural construct. While physical reality hasn't change the interpretations and meanings we attach to it have, and since so much of human lived experience is a social and cultural experience, to all intents and purposes we have changed reality.

Thanks, Blibby. Yes, I expect the original theory had a lot more to it than 'language creates reality', and what youv'e said makes sense.

What I think has happened is that people have latched onto 'language creates reality' without the slightest shading of nuance or depth. They've taken it literally.

So when you get genderists claiming that sex isn't real, or is less relevant to life than gender, they aren't saying they themselves don't perceive sex, but implementing the theory that if we change the language that frames reality, many things we believe are "real" will be shown to be simply a deep social/cultural construct. While physical reality hasn't change the interpretations and meanings we attach to it have, and since so much of human lived experience is a social and cultural experience, to all intents and purposes we have changed reality

--This analysis is so great. I get so frustrated with a friend of mine who says, "A woman is whoever calls herself a woman," but gets angry that I don't want to call myself a ciswoman. Which means she knows perfectly well what a woman is, she just wants to make the word a punishment rather than a straightforward definition. Oh, and she also said that the meaning of words is always subjective.

@midgemagneto

But aren't there some concepts that are less prone to language than others ?

Like ( I am making this up /half remembering things ) all cultures see red and green , but some see the future behind rather than ahead of you ( you can't see it)

I would guess sex is one of those concepts that appears in every culture ?

It's more like the significance you attach to reality. So, if you'd grown up in an (imaginary) culture where height was more significant than sex, would you still see sex as a significant human difference, or would it just be a 'meh' difference like eye colour.

The point being that once a group becomes dominant, it has the power to define "reality" in the way that serves its own interests best. The best way to keep power is to make people believe its natural for you to have it and once you get past the stage of just having the biggest gang to enforce your power, language/culture is how you do that.

And, as you can probably tell, I don't disagree with the underlying principle of constantly asking 'if I hadn't grown up "knowing" this would I still think it'. I find it a very useful tool for disecting and yes, deconstructing patriarchy as a feminist. What I disagree with in the gender ideology's approach is that it's trying to throw out the cultural constructions of sex in a very superficial way by focusing on just the personal freedom and expression side of removing sex - based controls while ignoring the much deeper ingrained sense of entitlement over female bodies that our culture inculates in males that those controls exist to mitigate.

(^ and the social impact of our reproductive role of course)

A great article by Sonia Sodha in the Observer, here: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/26/white-feminists-are-under-attack-from-other-women-here-can-only-be-one-winner--men

Just as Sonia predicts, Rafia Zakaria has responded with personal attacks rather than engaging with the points.

twitter.com/rafiazakaria/status/1442236137859395585 Not to be outdone as the best “brown white feminist” here’s Sonia Sodha @guardianopinion ready to spank any feminist who dares bring up race at all S also pulls a zombie move demanding that we see upper class white ladies= “grassroots feminists of the UK”

Also twitter.com/rafiazakaria/status/1442161195507716107

How pathetic that woman is.

Is she writing Pragna Patel of the Southall Black Sisters off as a "brown white feminist" too? "Upper class white ladies" are not mentioned, that's her assumption. She seems clueless as to class.

Feminism is a broad movement: look for it and you’ll find superficial strands. But to reduce feminism to this alone is to ignore the British tradition of radical grassroots feminism that has brought women of all colours and classes together in the fight against patriarchal male violence. In one of the best-known examples, Justice for Women and Southall Black Sisters worked together from the early 1990s to get long prison sentences overturned for women driven to kill their abusive partners following the most dreadful prolonged abuse.

Not seeing "upper class white ladies" referenced. How very dishonest.