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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Against White Feminism

276 replies

Allycott · 12/09/2021 17:47

Yesterday I heard an interview with the author of this book. I listened to her views and rationale for writing the book.

Has anyone read it?

OP posts:
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Beowulfa · 13/09/2021 10:56

I read a brief interview with the writer in the Standard the other week. She described how difficult it was for her as an immigrant and single mother to pass the US bar exam, which is ridiculously inflexible. It didn't, however, explain how this rigid approach by the law authorities was the fault of white feminists. It also didn't mention how this shitty assessment system discriminates against all working parents, and clearly against many types of disabilities (would extra time be allowed for candidates with visual impairments or dyslexia?).

Why do white feminists specifically get the blame for a system designed decades ago by elite males for elite males, that disadvantages so many different people?

PronounssheRa · 13/09/2021 10:57

She says elsewhere white women journalists are her biggest hate target.

That's interesting. Does she claim to be a feminist?

NonnyMouse1337 · 13/09/2021 10:58

OK, but POC from all classes (or perceived classes) can and do experience discrimination based on their race

Yes - and? I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Plenty of people who have experienced racism, prejudice or discrimination on the basis of their race/ethnicity don't necessarily agree with the ideological framework that is used by 'intersectional feminism'.

Lunificent · 13/09/2021 10:58

I listened to the Woman’s Hour interview and was interested in the concept of the white feminist. I was eager to hear more and in turn to challenge myself. By the end of the interview, I was surprised that given the amount of time Zakaria had to articulate her views she hadn’t said a lot, there was a lot of repetition and barely any examples given of the issues she was concerned about.
I was curious to see if she had more to say so found her Twitter feed. I was really, really surprised to find her laying into the interviewer and making accusations. Her followers seemed to be encouraging this. I think I’ll have to listen to the interview again but I can’t believe she was describing the same interview.

Jaysmith71 · 13/09/2021 11:04

I'm sure Kwasi Kwarteng had to contend with some nasty remarks from the other boys at Eton. Should we call him 'oppressed?'

There is a scene in Amistad where the detained Africans from the slave ship are visited by the abolitionists including a finely dressed Morgan Freeman. They rush forward to plead with him to help them. "I'm sorry," he says in lofty tones, "but I don't speak African."

I saw an echo of this a while ago on the BBC Politics show where a black guy campaigning for police accountability was on with Kwasi Kwarteng and greeted him as a brother, then heard him speak. The look on the guy's face, he had never encountered this before. KK might as well have been from Mars to him.

Fitt · 13/09/2021 11:13

“If white men have welcomed you to the executive suite, the way you protect your position there is you continue to please white men.”

She says this in the Guardian. Honestly Rafia, how DO YOU KNOW?
You don't know, you have absolutely no idea. You are just making up shitty soundbites.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 13/09/2021 11:32

Money

If you’re rich you will have more opportunities and options than a poor person, regardless of race

Which is not to say that a rich black person and a rich white person will have the same opportunities and options

But we shouldn’t overlook money

Cerebelle · 13/09/2021 12:45

Ignoring for the moment any issues with her analysis, what are her proposed solutions? I haven't read the book and it wasn't clear from the interview, review or her tweets.

I agree that the UK has issues with racism in many/all areas of society. Its different to the US (and other countries) but still real and persistent. We cannot deny that many WOC in the UK feel alienated from feminism as a named movement even though they may be doing activism for women regardless.

So the most useful thing to discuss would be the actions she suggest are taken either by white women, men or society at large and then analyse whether they may be successful or not.

@Maduixa could you shed some light as it sounds like you read it?

Cerebelle · 13/09/2021 12:50

As a ginger, I'm also curious about whether I would be centering my whiteness by alluding to my red hair in any sm handles, nicknames etc. Would it make a difference that blonde hair is seen as desirable when being ginger meant a fair bit of abuse and nasty bullying when I was younger?

Ginger hair is another example of differences between England, other parts of the UK, Europe and the US. The cultural attitudes of tolerance of bullying of redheads varys massively.

PermanentTemporary · 13/09/2021 13:06

The problem that many women do not experience any kind of feminist sisterhood from other women continues to dog feminism as an analysis.

I've no doubt that there were female police, politicians, social workers, teachers who took part in the definition of girls in Oxford, Rotherham and elsewhere as not vulnerable to abuse, despite the immense visibility of that vulnerability to us now. It's also true that it was women like Sarah Champion (? Can't remember if that's her name) who did see it.

It shows how important it is when thinking intersectionality to look at the different issues one by one. Yes this group of men are disadvantaged by race. Yes they have grouped in one profession/class (taxi driving) due to racism excluding them from other opportunities. Look again: now they are in a profession/class with unusually free access to underage children. They are seen frequently to be with underage children. Now look again; the taxi drivers are male and the children are female. What are the risks there? How are the girls behaving, what are they saying?

PlanDeRaccordement · 13/09/2021 13:34

I won’t comment on her book as I have not yet read it. But her tweets and comments and her interview strike me as imbued with racial hatred of all white women and anyone who disagrees with her she labels a white feminist (race traitor). I haven’t seen her say much of substance. Perhaps it is in her book.

Its been socially accepted for some time now that racism against white men is allowed. It was only a matter of time before this racism would be extended to the mothers, sisters and daughters of white men...white women. After all, without white women, no white men would exist and white men are viewed as the source of racism. It’s the old blame the mothers for the sins of their sons patriarchal ploy.

I hope her book has more to say.

WhereYouLeftIt · 13/09/2021 16:08

@nauticant

To deal with her humiliation, she's deleted the most stupid tweet. If she wants to hide her folly then, to paraphrase, "she's going to need a bigger delete button":

twitter.com/search?q=(from%3Arafiazakaria)%20until%3A2021-09-14&src=typed_query&f=live

You've got to scroll down to when she was most energised.

Honestly, that reads a lot like drunk-tweeting. I see she's deleted some, so either she's 'sobered up' or wised up (or her publisher has pointed out the bleedin' obvious).

Not that deleting them will work. It will all be archived by someone, somewhere.

LobsterNapkin · 13/09/2021 16:41

@TabbyStar

Although is telling WOC that they are white feminists much different from calling liberal feminists handmaidens? It seems a similar concept, highlighting that they identify more with the oppressor than the oppressed, and denying them individual agency.
It's the same. Both are ways to dismiss people who aren't toeing your ideological line.
MorrisZapp · 13/09/2021 16:53

@RoyalCorgi

There's money to be made in pissing on white women these days.

Yes, that seems to be about the size of it. Everyone hates white women, apparently, especially if they're middle-aged. The great thing is it takes one facet of their identity (whiteness) and uses it as an excuse to attack the other facet (womanhood). Allows people - including white men, ironically - to give full vent to their misogyny while looking progressive.

Nailed it. Bloody nailed it.
LobsterNapkin · 13/09/2021 16:53

@Jaysmith71

Re 'uppity,' above, and being divided by a common language:

Another racist term with very different transatlantic meanings is 'Thug.'

In the US, it is code for an urban young black male in hoodie and baggiy jeans on the streets and without a job.

In the UK, its origins come from the Raj and the Thugee, allegedly anti-Western bandits (another Anglo-Indian word) who supposedly targetted white people. In realith, they were probably just ordinary decent criminals trying to earn a dishonest living. But the term stuck, and gained new currency postwar when it was applied to the very pale Teds, Mods & Rockers etc.

I'm not sure I really agree with this.

The origins are the same in both places.

In the US, because it was being used to describe gang members in inner cities, many of whom were black. Some began to complain that it was a racially charged word, and should no longer be used.

It was never exclusively used to describe black men.

Of course any word that was being regularly used to describe members of criminal gangs would, in the mind of the reading public, come to have a sort of vague association with whatever group of people tended to be in urban criminal gangs. Without necessarily applying exclusively to them - this is how all language works.

There are some people who seem to think that by controlling or eliminating such words, it will somehow help the underlying issue. I doubt they are actually a majority, and maybe more importantly, it won't work. Stopping people from using the word thug doesn't change their mental image of what a gang member looks like, and it certainly doesn't do a damn thing to address the problems that produce gangs.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 13/09/2021 17:01

The OUP on uppity :

blog.oup.com/2008/09/uppity/

SquirryTheSquirrel · 13/09/2021 17:13

If white men have welcomed you to the executive suite, the way you protect your position there is you continue to please white men

Well, let's get to the position where white men are welcoming women - any women - to the boardroom. Once we are there - which seems a long way away - then we can look at how best to use that position to bring about wider change.

LobsterNapkin · 13/09/2021 17:30

I agree that the UK has issues with racism in many/all areas of society. Its different to the US (and other countries) but still real and persistent. We cannot deny that many WOC in the UK feel alienated from feminism as a named movement even though they may be doing activism for women regardless.

This is true of women from all kinds of backgrounds though. Many of them feel alienated from feminism. Poor women, women with different social or religious values, women who vote the wrong way, women who feel pushed into the workforce...

It would be really interesting to see what kind of overlaps there are between these groups. I suspect there are some areas where you would see quite a lot of correlation though some would be unique.

CayrolBaaaskin · 13/09/2021 18:01

I think it’s total crap to say some POC aren’t really POC because they have a different opinion. It’s super offensive. It reminds me of all that “self hating Jew” crap where some Jews claim other Jews are not really Jews because they don’t have the same opinion. What rubbish. People can be black or Jewish or white and have a whole range of opinions. It’s offensive and ridiculous to think you have to think a certain way because of race or skin color.

Clymene · 13/09/2021 18:19

I really don't think the word thug has any racial connotations in the U.K.

Jaysmith71 · 13/09/2021 18:26

@Clymene

I really don't think the word thug has any racial connotations in the U.K.
Not to most people, but I'd be careful when using it about Indians and similar for historic reasons:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

HPFA · 13/09/2021 18:34

Good article here:

unherd.com/2021/09/the-problem-with-white-saviours/

KimikosNightmare · 13/09/2021 18:58

Not to most people, but I'd be careful when using it about Indians and similar for historic reasons

Oh fgs "thug" in the UK has every likelihood of being used in the context of "racist thug" and almost always for attacks by white, racist thugs.

KimikosNightmare · 13/09/2021 19:00

@SquirryTheSquirrel

If white men have welcomed you to the executive suite, the way you protect your position there is you continue to please white men

Well, let's get to the position where white men are welcoming women - any women - to the boardroom. Once we are there - which seems a long way away - then we can look at how best to use that position to bring about wider change.

The way to protect your position is to do what you were put there to do and do it well. I can't abide this constant infantilisation of women.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 13/09/2021 19:05

@CorrBlimeyGG

Feminism often fails to be intersectional, and chooses to ignore the particular issues faced by women of colour. Keep ignoring that fact and you remain part of the problem.

paid sick leave; maternity leave; maternity pay; a free at the point of need healthcare system; a different prison system

Women of colour are more likely to be in low paid work with poor benefits. They have worse health outcomes, particularly in maternity care. They're far more likely to be sent to prison than their white counterparts.

But yes, all fine here. Right?

Totally agree.

So if middle-class white "transinclusive feminists" could stop advocating for people like Karen White and Jessica Brennan to go to women's prisons, that would be grand.

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