Against White Feminism

[Allycott]

Yesterday I heard an interview with the author of this book. I listened to her views and rationale for writing the book.

Has anyone read it?

Although is telling WOC that they are white feminists much different from calling liberal feminists handmaidens? It seems a similar concept, highlighting that they identify more with the oppressor than the oppressed, and denying them individual agency.

White people have a lot to answer for, but they're buggered if they're going to get the blame for Pritit Patel.

When the term 'white feminism' was first coined it was used to describe that kind of feminism that was focused on glass ceilings and getting more females into the boardroom, and so on. Now it's a term thrown about to shame and silence any woman who does the kind of feminism that men don't like; another term that has become devalued and meaningless.

Also, if we are going to discuss intersectionality, I think American cultural imperialism needs to be acknowledged. In the age of information and social media many Americans tend to assume the rest of the world is the 51st state, shouting down everyone else and demanding that they 'educate themselves' about some American obsession. Is there such a thing as American privilege? I think so. One of the reasons some Americans are so obsessed with niche identity politics is they don't want you to notice that they have it.

There's money to be made in pissing on white women these days.

Yes, that seems to be about the size of it. Everyone hates white women, apparently, especially if they're middle-aged. The great thing is it takes one facet of their identity (whiteness) and uses it as an excuse to attack the other facet (womanhood). Allows people - including white men, ironically - to give full vent to their misogyny while looking progressive.

I'm worried that criticisms of the book in the UK may miss the point that feminism isn't felt to be inclusive of women of colour by many of women of colour. Whether this is through ignorance or disagreement is another matter but I think this thread could easily alienate many MN who aren't white.

There are differences between the racism that exists in the UK vs the US but I think many British PoC still find their experiences reflected in the US discourse (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Like a pp I hope MNers who post on Black Mumsnet will engage with this thread but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't.

Note - i'm not accusing anyone on this thread of racism, I just think that in focusing on the differences between US and British culture it risks excluding PoC living in Britain who can't relate to mainstream feminism.

She's calling people Karen's now

Terfs and boomers as well. If your position is so weak you need to resort to childish insults it doesn't inspire me to read the book

‘I'm worried that criticisms of the book in the UK may miss the point that feminism isn't felt to be inclusive of women of colour by many of women of colour. Whether this is through ignorance or disagreement is another matter but I think this thread could easily alienate many MN who aren't white.’

I agree. I don’t think this book is going to help white UK feminists to understand more about the black UK feminist experience but I do think many of us still have a lot to learn.

And regards the 'Boomer' thing, UK and US postwar birth rates differ significantly. There is a sharp postwar spike, for obvious reasons, in both countries, but in the UK it falls back down rapidly as austerity sets in, and revives in the Swinging Sixties when the US numbers are in freefall. We called this the 'baby bulge' at the time.

And at no stage does the UK birth rate equal the US.

I tried to look at RZ's Twitter. It seems to have gone...

@TabbyStar

Although is telling WOC that they are white feminists much different from calling liberal feminists handmaidens? It seems a similar concept, highlighting that they identify more with the oppressor than the oppressed, and denying them individual agency.

Up to a point, yes. But in the case of "handmaiden" it's making a pretty simple point about women standing up for men's rights over women's.

Feminism, on the other hand, is a movement for the liberation of women - all women. Labelling a black woman who is fighting on behalf of women's liberation a "white feminist" is problematic because the term "white feminism" is itself problematic. What are women of colour being accused of when they are labelled "white feminists"? Is it anything more than a lazy insult?

I remember seeing a black British woman get absolutely monstered on social media because she'd used the word 'uppity.' She tried to explain that the word, in this country, is nowadays used in a jokey way ('uppity bloody women,' 'the staff are getting uppity,' and so on) but the Americans insisted the word was only ever racist, that she had deliberately been racist, that if she didn't know it was racist she should educate herself about America, and, in the end, that she was probably white. It was horrible. The innocent use of a word had turned her a white racist and the more she tried to explain, the more she apologised, the more vicious the attack became.

To deal with her humiliation, she's deleted the most stupid tweet. If she wants to hide her folly then, to paraphrase, "she's going to need a bigger delete button":

twitter.com/search?q=(from%3Arafiazakaria)%20until%3A2021-09-14&src=typed_query&f=live

You've got to scroll down to when she was most energised.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

I tried to look at RZ's Twitter. It seems to have gone...

It's still there but she has deleted a number of tweets

Apparently the UK has never had a proper civil rights movement. How disrespectful

It sounds like a horribly divisive book (and way of thinking) which can only harm all women. I agree that this division does suit the patriarchy.

The only issues I've cared about have been making childcare available to all, equal pay, supporting refuges better, legislation to make abuse punishable. How can I be capitalising on my privilege at the expense of WOC? i don't understand, but then unlike the author, I'm not a lawyer, nowhere near as successful!

My xbf went ahead and abused me even though I'm white. He abused me emotionally, verbally, financially and physically. And i couldn't walk away because I had small children and no money and nowhere to go when I got there and I thought these issues were universal to all women because of our biology.

But I've seen posters on mn get angry about white feminism. I don't know how I'm a ''white'' feminist. I thought I was just a feminist.

It's frustrating.

I just think that in focusing on the differences between US and British culture it risks excluding PoC living in Britain who can't relate to mainstream feminism.

You're going to have to explain what mainstream feminism is to you, because from my point of view, intersectional feminism is mainstream feminism.
The type that insists 'women of colour' should accept males in single-sex spaces and services which is more likely to cause such women to withdraw from public spaces and activities.
It's the type of feminism that only values 'women of colour' if they agree with its ideological assertions.
It's the type of feminism that conveniently suits middle class and privileged 'women of colour' while shafting women of all skin tones under the guise of personal choice (surrogacy, trafficking etc).

@RoyalCorgi

There's money to be made in pissing on white women these days.

Yes, that seems to be about the size of it. Everyone hates white women, apparently, especially if they're middle-aged. The great thing is it takes one facet of their identity (whiteness) and uses it as an excuse to attack the other facet (womanhood). Allows people - including white men, ironically - to give full vent to their misogyny while looking progressive.

So depressing and true.

"Ok Boomer" features at least twice, Karen makes an appearance and there is an honourable mention of "toad".

It's a shame, because there is the need for a discussion on race and feminism, but is this it?

Her Twitter is still there but the great delete has taken place, she is though still chucking Karen and Terf around like hundreds and thousands.

I think there are some very interesting conversations around race and feminism to be had both in the US & UK but would agree that a) those can’t be conflated due to massive cultural differences and b) this book doesn’t seem to be at all helpful.

When I was at college in the US in the late 90s there was an almost wilful refusal to accept that European culture was other to white US culture, and that theories and beliefs (like recipes) couldn’t be neatly mapped across the two.

I had a film studies lecturer who insisted that Scarlett O’Hara marrying her first cousin violated an incest taboo - me (Anglo-Irish) pointing out that (particularly when Gone with the Wind is set) it didn’t as she was still very much in an Irish family as a first generation immigrant and marrying your first cousin was (still) legal in the UK and Ireland and not that unusual in some areas was totally dismissed. The idea that people can be ‘removed’ from their blackness also seems very American- my dual heritage British friend who was raised by her white mum was totally ostracised by black American students who thought she was an ‘Oreo’.

American bread just disintegrates when you try to butter it. Same with their writers , celebs and politicians - If you ask a question that's not on the agreed list they melt into a puddle of simmering resentment.

That reminds me of a few times when I've seen a black British reporter working in the US and the absolute shock that some locals display when the reporter speaks in a British accent. They then struggle because they cannot put the reporter into any kind of context.

Was following this on Twitter last night. It did feel almost like Rafia was intoxicated or not feeling well, just such strange behaviour and reactivity.

The whole UK feminism (well, UK rad leaning or GC feminism) is white feminism thing baffles me, when so many of the leaders are women of colour.

This thread by Allison Bailey, black, lesbian, working class lawyer, is good.
twitter.com/bluskyeallison/status/1290181205321637888?s=21

Annoys me so much when Oxbridge educated white he/hims talk about white feminism, ignoring female voices. (or Americans and others with no knowledge of the UK and the fact we all have human rights here already, thank you very much, including trans people).

UK and US are just such such different societies. And across both countries there are shifts, eg how Scotland may be seen as more progressive and liberal than England in many ways and is certainly much more white- does that mean it's more tied to white supremacy?? There's more than a fair share of poverty and related issues in mainly white communities across the UK away from major population hubs where it's hard to identify any privilege.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Apparently the UK has never had a proper civil rights movement. How disrespectful

That's hilarious. Has anyone pointed out to her that we didn't have racial segregation and Jim Crow laws either? Americans' ignorance of other countries never ceases to astound me. Someone should tell her about the Battle of Bamber Bridge:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bamber_Bridge

I'd love to hear recommendations of books that do enlighten in the UK context. I'm quite intrigued to read this one tbh. British racism is rife but different and there's no doubt how intersectionality works over here will be different too.

@nonnymouse1337 feminism to me is equality for genders in all areas of life and law, regardless of background, race, disability, nationality or class (etc).

But I'm not going to deny the experience of WOC who say that in practice this concept of feminism fails in its relevance to them. We need to look at why this is so and learn from it so that POC don't feel excluded by it.